Lost Submersible

[DAKA]

5 hours ago, Al Czervik said:

Alex, I'll take dead people in a submersible for $200.  

A.  I'd never get into that little space with a bunch of smelly dudes.

B.  If it was going down more than 50 feet, I want some former hardcore geek from Electric Boat or similar give his stamp and kick the tires.

C.  The smelly dudes thing again.

And even then there are sometimes "accidents"  Thresher ??

[DAKA]

Also   MASSIVE amount of resources and cost to try to recover those fools....

[railfancwb]

47 minutes ago, DAKA said:

Also   MASSIVE amount of resources and cost to try to recover those fools....

Our behavior is different. How often have you seen a headline like this?--TWO DIE ATTEMPTING RESCUE OF DROWNING CHILD. If a man gets lost in the mountains, hundreds will search and often two or three searchers are killed. But the next time somebody gets lost just as many volunteers turn out.
Poor arithmetic, but very human. It runs through all our folklore, all human religions, all our literature--a racial conviction that when one human needs rescue, others should not count the price.

Robert A. Heinlein, Starship Troopers

[janice6]

3 hours ago, railfancwb said:

Our behavior is different. How often have you seen a headline like this?--TWO DIE ATTEMPTING RESCUE OF DROWNING CHILD. If a man gets lost in the mountains, hundreds will search and often two or three searchers are killed. But the next time somebody gets lost just as many volunteers turn out.
Poor arithmetic, but very human. It runs through all our folklore, all human religions, all our literature--a racial conviction that when one human needs rescue, others should not count the price.

Robert A. Heinlein, Starship Troopers

One Spring I was in grade school and on my way home along the Mississippi River bank, the Ice was just going out.  I waddled out on the ice on my stomach to grab the front paws of a dog that couldn't get out of the river.  I got him onto the ice and we both made it back to shore.  I didn't even think that I shouldn't do this. I  love critters to death, apparently literally.  Of course, I didn't tell my mother what I had done.

[tous]

12 hours ago, M&P15T said:

Any rational person that had factual knowledge and understanding of the craft (submersible) and the person in charge, wouldn't get on board that POS. So either they did not have access to all the pertinent information, yet still decided to go ahead with the trip, OR they did have all the information and still chose to go ahead with the trip.

Either way it was an extremely stupid decision that cost them their lives. 

That submersible was a massive POS, and the people who ran the shindig were morons with no experience in submersibles, who actively refused to involve anyone with any real knowledge or experience. Because, by their own statements, 50 year old ex-Navy submariner white guys aren't "inspiring".

You'd have to be bovine stupid to get into that tub, with that guy. 

FWIW, they're all dead. The submersible was made of carbon fiber, and it simply shattered at depth. They all died quick. 

The Universe is a harsh mistress.

If you are stupid, arrogant or believe things contrary to reality -- the Universe will laugh at you and no amount of belief in nonsense or  popular ideology can stop it, nor should it.

Often, the Universe will settle for allowing one to make a fool of themselves and suffer the derision of humanity as wall as the laughter of the Universe.

Heck, some folk are so dumb even the animals are laughing.

There are also those that are committed to, as we used to put it, pushing the envelope; discovering new things, improving old things, doing highly dangerous acts to add just a tiny bit more to human knowledge.

Galileo and Copernicus risked agonizing death at the hands of the Roman Catholic Inquisition, but did not stop.

The Wright brothers risked injury, scorn and death, but did not stop.

Two space shuttle crews gone in an instant in 1986 and 2003, but they knew the risks and went anyway for the prize was worth it.

And H. L. Hunley developed the submersible craft, the submarine, and John P. Holland improved it.  Sadly they were weapons of war, but the earliest submariners risked death because the prize, the incredible machines that are the modern submarine and submersible,  was worth it.

The sailors of the Thresher and Scorpion, along with their Soviet counterparts pushed the envelope and died in the service of technical advance, of more knowledge and I can state  with almost certainty that those sailors knew the risks and went anyway, for like the Shuttle astronauts, the prize was worth it.

 

Yes, the Universe laughed at them and they perished, not because they were foolish, but because they were courageous and made mistakes.

While laughing., the Universe also embraced them for it is men and women like that that one day will greet the Universe in person.

 

[tous]

Just another note.

The ignorant news media showed a picture of a Canadian CP-140 Aurora anti-submarine aircraft all day yesterday

Some of the clueless news readers identified the aircraft as a Navy P-3 Orion, but it's an easy mistake to make.

One can only surmise that the perpetually useless media featured the aircraft as the machine that will save the Titanic Five from certain doom.

Unlikely.

The P-3/CP-140 hunts submarines using active and passive sensors, mostly passive and active SONAR,  that they drop on a suspected target's location and a sensor that detects changes in the Earth's magnetic field caused by a submarine passing along. That is the long rod-like thing, the Magnetic Anomaly Detector,  extended from the aircraft's tail.

Consider that if the submersible is 2000 to 4000 meters (Titanic is at 3800 meter) beneath the surface, there are dozens and dozens of thermoclines, a layer between cooler and warmer water in the ocean that will reflect and refract SONAR energy.  This is where submarines go to hide from SONAR, thus the sensors onboard a P-3/CP-140 have little chance of detecting the submersible with the aircraft's sensors.  The same applies to surface-deployed SONAR.  The best approach would be another submersible with SONAR that can hunt beneath and above the thermoclines as needed and even that has a dubious chance of success.  Even if the submersible is only around 1000 meters deep, same thermoclines, same tiny vessel in huge ocean.

Yes, they are reporting that they are 'hearing' noises, but there is no way of knowing what  is making the noises unless and until they get close enough to interrogate it.

Yes, the missing submersible doesn't have intentionally-quite systems like a submarine, but it's a huge ocean and a tiny vessel.

No need to discount the effectiveness of the  MAD; the target craft is made of carbon fiber, thus, if it disturbs the magnetic field at all, it is likely undetectable.

 

So, there.

[Silentpoet]

My money is on implosion.

[Mrs.Cicero]

Besides the thing imploding, what would prevent all 7 methods of resurfacing from working?  Were all those methods electrical?  That seems… stupid.  What’s the sea floor like where the Titanic rests?  Are there shelves they could have gotten caught under?  If they surfaced and are simply floating on currents in that huge search area, don’t they have a transponder on that thing?  
 

i wonder if a giant squid mistook them for a whale and tried to eat them…

[gwalchmai]

Mike Nelson used to have those little self-inflatable buoys that he'd stick on stuff he wanted to send to the surface. CO2, I think (unless Mike predated CO2). We could use Mike, I think, but that's just just like, my opinion, man.

 

[gwalchmai]

This is just wrong and you should be ashamed for laughing at it.

[minderasr]

On 6/21/2023 at 7:57 AM, pipedreams said:

I wonder if he's down there with them?

14 hours ago, DAKA said:

Also   MASSIVE amount of resources and cost to try to recover those fools....

Those families can afford the bill.

[M&P15T]

10 hours ago, tous said:

There are also those that are committed to, as we used to put it, pushing the envelope; discovering new things, improving old things, doing highly dangerous acts to add just a tiny bit more to human knowledge.

Galileo and Copernicus risked agonizing death at the hands of the Roman Catholic Inquisition, but did not stop.

The Wright brothers risked injury, scorn and death, but did not stop.

Two space shuttle crews gone in an instant in 1986 and 2003, but they knew the risks and went anyway for the prize was worth it.

And H. L. Hunley developed the submersible craft, the submarine, and John P. Holland improved it.  Sadly they were weapons of war, but the earliest submariners risked death because the prize, the incredible machines that are the modern submarine and submersible,  was worth it.

The sailors of the Thresher and Scorpion, along with their Soviet counterparts pushed the envelope and died in the service of technical advance, of more knowledge and I can state  with almost certainty that those sailors knew the risks and went anyway, for like the Shuttle astronauts, the prize was worth it.

 

Retort;

There's a difference between exploring new technologies, and just doing stupid **** for no reason, other than you're rich and bored. 

There was nothing to be gained from that craft going down to the Titanic.

 

[M&P15T]

6 hours ago, Silentpoet said:

My money is on implosion.

Me too.

It was made from carbon-fiber, which just shatters. And has 0 flex, so it's a bad material for making a submersible from. 

The reason they're finding nothing, is because it's all in little pieces on the ocean floor. The largest part would be the plastic/glass nose part, and that's see-through so it's easy to miss visually.

[M&P15T]

In the comments from this video;

"Further, the craft was designed to reach depths of 4,000 meters (13,123 feet), where the Titanic rested. But, according to Lochridge, the passenger viewport was only certified for depths of up to 1,300 meters (4,265 feet), and OceanGate would not pay for the manufacturer to build a viewport certified for 4,000 meters."

 

 

[Batesmotel]

24 minutes ago, M&P15T said:

There was nothing to be gained from that craft going down to the Titanic.

 

$$$$$$$$$$

[M&P15T]

2 minutes ago, Batesmotel said:

$$$$$$$$$$

And that's the real reason this happened.

[M&P15T]

Evidently a trip down to Titanic cost $250,000.00

[tous]

1 hour ago, M&P15T said:

Retort;

There's a difference between exploring new technologies, and just doing stupid **** for no reason, other than you're rich and bored. 

There was nothing to be gained from that craft going down to the Titanic.

 

I did not intend to compare the builders of the Titanic submersible with the others mentioned.

Those responsible for the design, construction and management of the vessel and their remarks about old white men may well be worthy of a Universal laugh because they are fools.

Being woke and incompetent does not changes the rules of the ocean.

I didn't make that clear, my fault.

[M&P15T]

7 minutes ago, tous said:

I did not intend to compare the builders of the Titanic submersible with the others mentioned.

Those responsible for the design, construction and management of the vessel and their remarks about old white men may well be worthy of a Universal laugh because they are fools.

Being woke and incompetent does not changes the rules of the ocean.

I didn't make that clear, my fault.

Gotcha.

[M&P15T]

A debris field has been found on the ocean floor, says the US Coast Guard. 

 

[Fog]

3 hours ago, M&P15T said:

Me too.

It was made from carbon-fiber, which just shatters. And has 0 flex, so it's a bad material for making a submersible from. 

The reason they're finding nothing, is because it's all in little pieces on the ocean floor. The largest part would be the plastic/glass nose part, and that's see-through so it's easy to miss visually.

I have a carbon fiber fishing pole that I can bend the tip around to the handle and touch it to the reel seat, yet fight a huge fish with authority. It is not a zero flex material, like any substance it has certain properties and those are both strengths and weaknesses. How the finished part is made determines what it can withstand and what it can't.

Many aircraft are flying today made of carbon fiber, carrying hundreds of thousands of passengers every day, they are safe. When the 787 crashed at SFO it cartwheeled end over end and didn't break up or kill any passengers, it has a lot of carbon fiber in it. 

[M&P15T]

1 hour ago, Fog said:

I have a carbon fiber fishing pole that I can bend the tip around to the handle and touch it to the reel seat, yet fight a huge fish with authority. It is not a zero flex material, like any substance it has certain properties and those are both strengths and weaknesses. How the finished part is made determines what it can withstand and what it can't.

Many aircraft are flying today made of carbon fiber, carrying hundreds of thousands of passengers every day, they are safe. When the 787 crashed at SFO it cartwheeled end over end and didn't break up or kill any passengers, it has a lot of carbon fiber in it. 

There's carbon fiber, and then there's carbon fiber composites like your fishing rod. My understanding is that the material used to make the central section tube of that POS would just shatter, and can't sustain repeated dives to depth, as it's pure carbon fiber.

And like your fishing pole, the 787 uses carbon re-enforced plastics, not pure carbon fiber. 

"In total each Dreamliner contains about 70,000 pounds (33 tons) of carbon fiber reinforced plastic - of which about 45,000 (20 tons) pounds is carbon fiber." There's no pure CF used in the construction of a 787, just composites. And it's only 33 tons of composites out of a total weight of around 242 tons.

So, no it's not "made of carbon fiber". 

 

[M&P15T]

They've found parts. It's in pieces on the ocean floor. It was a "catastrophic loss of the pressure chamber", per the US Coast Guard spokesman. There's two debris field. They're mapping them now.

[Silentpoet]

17 minutes ago, M&P15T said:

They've found parts. It's in pieces on the ocean floor. It was a "catastrophic loss of the pressure chamber", per the US Coast Guard spokesman. There's two debris field. They're mapping them now.

Pretty much what I figured when they lost communication and it didn’t surface. 

[Eric]

Yeah, this is what I thought must have happened. I am surprised though that the surface ship didn't hear the implosion. They have passive sonar and an implosion would have been a loud, if very brief event.