Lost Submersible

[tous]

Now I'm intrigued.

I'll have to think about the benefit of the introduction of metals in the composite.

In chemistry and physics, the carbon-carbon bond is one of the strongest there is, far stronger than metal alloy bonds, no?

Any articles come to mind?

I know that composite recipes, such as Indy Racing uses, are proprietary and very closely guarded.

As were ours, but we kept them secret so the Soviets and Chinese didn't steal them and get to forego all of the research and development costs.

But, Joe Biden was in the Senate then, so he probably sold everything we did to the Chines communists. 

 

NB  are composite rods such as fishing poles and golf club shafts  still oval rather than circular in shape?

<-- curious wiggly bear

[tous]

This article answers a lot of the questions. 

Good read, but you need some engineering and science knowledge to appreciate it.

 

Carbon fiber/metal matrix composites

[Fog]

12 minutes ago, tous said:

Now I'm intrigued.

I'll have to think about the benefit of the introduction of metals in the composite.

In chemistry and physics, the carbon-carbon bond is one of the strongest there is, far stronger than metal alloy bonds, no?

Any articles come to mind?

I know that composite recipes, such as Indy Racing uses, are proprietary and very closely guarded.

As were ours, but we kept them secret so the Soviets and Chinese didn't steal them and get to forego all of the research and development costs.

But, Joe Biden was in the Senate then, so he probably sold everything we did to the Chines communists. 

 

NB  are composite rods such as fishing poles and golf club shafts  still oval rather than circular in shape?

<-- curious wiggly bear

I'd love to tell you more, but the guys who make them won't tell me. I have some guesses, but for some reason Uncle Sam wants this process a secret, so when I guess I was told they were not discussing it any further. They tell me that they are only allocated a small portion of the manufacturing capacity for recreational items, most is going to various government agencies to build things that no one admits exist.

Could all be fancy marketing. Remember that the first thing all fishing gear catches is the fisherman who buys it.

I can tell you that is isn't black. It's kinda white/silver/burgundy-ish with a hint of gold in the right light. Might be a paint?

[tous]

One benefit I can think of right away is that metal threads are malleable; they stretch and return to shape when subsequently relaxed.

Carbon fibers stretch once.

 

I am thirty years out of date with the  technology.

I do remember the PGA banning carbon-fiber shaft golf clubs back them

[Fog]

One a recent project I was checking concrete advancements and specifically making it bullet resistant.

Using glass and carbon fiber with rebar they now have some pretty thin concrete that can stop 50BMG, 4" thin.

China and Iran seem to be leading in this research to the point where so called bunker buster bombs are likely no longer effective against the most modern bunkers.

Concrete of course has mass on it's side, but is still very brittle as we know it in common use. Newer concretes are rewriting what it can do as a composite that has more than just aggregate in it.

[Batesmotel]

43 minutes ago, Walt Longmire said:

At least they didn't suffer.

Few things could be worse than stuck knowing you are running out of air. 

[tous]

1 minute ago, Fog said:

One a recent project I was checking concrete advancements and specifically making it bullet resistant.

Using glass and carbon fiber with rebar they now have some pretty thin concrete that can stop 50BMG, 4" thin.

China and Iran seem to be leading in this research to the point where so called bunker buster bombs are likely no longer effective against the most modern bunkers.

Concrete of course has mass on it's side, but is still very brittle as we know it in common use. Newer concretes are rewriting what it can do as a composite that has more than just aggregate in it.

As I understand it, bullet-resistant materials deform to absorb the projectile energy.

Concrete is not known to deform more than one or at all, but I imagine that you really don't need reusable bunkers, no?

Just repair the damage with new components.

 

Dang, thinking about all of this is the most fun I have had in a while.

[Fog]

1 minute ago, tous said:

As I understand it, bullet-resistant materials deform to absorb the projectile energy.

Concrete is not known to deform more than one or at all, but I imagine that you really don't need reusable bunkers, no?

Just repair the damage with new components.

 

Dang, thinking about all of this is the most fun I have had in a while.

I can geek out on materials science. Kinda runs in my family. I also love composites, started working with them in the late 80s.

As a youngster I had a mean clay mud and rock recipe that added just enough willow bark strands to be almost unbreakable. I built some steps out it of down into my bunker. It took days to dry, but even the flash flood didn't hurt those steps. There was a flower I would mix in too, bunches of them, it seemed to help bind the clay. I remember my dad being a mixture of annoyed and impressed when he was breaking the steps out to expand the garden.

I used the same mix to patch potholes in the alley and it lasted a couple of years with cars driving on it all the time.

[tous]

Good for you, amigo.

You found your science.

Composites, whether common or exotic, are the future of materials science and engineering. and have been for 50 years.

One day in the future we'll find someone, with a questioning lift of an eyebrow saying, Metal?  What is this metal that you speak of and why would I ever want to use it ti build anything?

But, i would have to answer, Oh, yeah?  Show me a composite that can conduct electricity!   

 

Science and engineering are the most fun you can have with your clothes on.

And with your clothes off.

[Silentpoet]

3 hours ago, Eric said:

On a tangent, a supercar maker who makes unusual, but very interesting cars is Pagani. The make the Huayra and some other models out of a composite called carbotanium. It is comprised of titanium wire that is plated with platinum, heated to like 500 degrees celsius, coated with a primer, then an adhesive and then coated with carbon. I am a little fuzzy on the whole process, but I assume this is done the the titanium wire first and then it is woven with carbon fiber into sheets. It is supposed to be light, strong as hell, with superior elasticity and heat resistance. It sounds really complicated to make and therefore very expensive. I wonder if it is truly a superior enough material to justify the added cost, or if it is just a cool selling point for companies like Pagani to tout?

 

Knowing what I do about welding I bet the heating is done in a chamber filled with argon or helium. Not sure what temperature Titanium starts oxidizing badly and welds brittle if it is not shielded well, but I think 500 celsius would probably cause some problems.  Just picked up some that is about .020 to play with.  Going to try to weld a cube out of it, but have to figure the size I want to do.  Probably 2 inches on a side.  But I may wait until I can get more argon/refill my tank because titanium welding just uses a lot.

 

[Silentpoet]

https://www.foxnews.com/world/us-navy-detected-titan-sub-implosion-top-secret-acoustic-system-day-vessel-went-missing

[tous]

1 minute ago, Silentpoet said:

Knowing what I do about welding I bet the heating is done in a chamber filled with argon or helium. Not sure what temperature Titanium starts oxidizing badly and welds brittle if it is not shielded well, but I think 500 celsius would probably cause some problems.  Just picked up some that is about .020 to play with.  Going to try to weld a cube out of it, but have to figure the size I want to do.  Probably 2 inches on a side.  But I may wait until I can get more argon/refill my tank because titanium welding just uses a lot.

 

I could tell you the techniques we used to effectively weld and mill titanium, but then I'd have to kill you.

 

Not an easy metal to work.

NB titanium was so expensive, we had security guards around the mills and presses to stop folk from stealing the shavings and selling it.

McDonnell Douglas, along with every other aerospace company, bought a lot of titanium.

We're talking tons, not pounds.

Your tax dollars at work.

[Silentpoet]

Quote

Washington state-based OceanGate announced its own Titanic operation a year later and Loibl seized the opportunity. He chartered a dive with OceanGate in 2019, paying a whopping $110,000, but that dive was canceled because the first submersible didn't survive testing.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/former-oceangate-tourist-calls-his-2021-titanic-sub-trip-kamikaze-operation

[Silentpoet]

2 minutes ago, tous said:

I could tell you the techniques we used to effectively weld and mill titanium, but then I'd have to kill you.

 

Not an easy metal to work.

NB titanium was so expensive, we had security guards around the mills and presses to stop folk from stealing the shavings and selling it.

McDonnell Douglas, along with every other aerospace company, bought a lot of titanium.

We're talking tons, not pounds.

Your tax dollars at work.

It is fairly cheap now.  I think with the fall of the soviet union 30 years ago supplies opened up.  These 2 pieces of 4 inch by 4 inch(roughly) cost about 25 dollars. with tax.  I could have gotten it cheaper if I wanted to risk alibaba. I am going to try that source, but want to get a prepaid card for that so they don't have my real card information.

[Eric]

17 minutes ago, Silentpoet said:

https://www.foxnews.com/world/us-navy-detected-titan-sub-implosion-top-secret-acoustic-system-day-vessel-went-missing

That is exactly the sort of thing I would have expected to happen. If the Navy’s SOSUS network can detect surface vessels and classify them by their screw noises from thousands of miles away, they could hear the sound of an underwater implosion, even a small one. I read that the Navy recently deactivated the Cold War-era SOSUS network based at Iceland, but we still want to keep track of Russian subs. They wouldn’t have deactivated that network if they didn’t have something to replace the capability with. 

I still wonder why the submersible's surface ship didn't hear the implosion. They had passive sonar running to listen for the periodic pings from the sub and they were sitting right on top of it.

[tous]

Some Republican Representative was saying that the Biden administration  refused permission to move Navy assets, including a DSRV that can go that deep,  to the AO to aid the search and rescue.

I guess they couldn't get the money to Hunter fast enough.

 

 

 

[Silentpoet]

9 minutes ago, Eric said:

 

I still wonder why the submersible's surface ship didn't hear the implosion. They had passive sonar running to listen for the periodic pings from the sub and they were sitting right on top of it.

Like somebody else said maybe they heard it and kept silent about it. That or the general lack of being thoroughly professional that the CEO seemed to encourage.

[tous]

11 minutes ago, Eric said:

That is exactly the sort of thing I would have expected to happen. If the Navy’s SOSUS network can detect surface vessels and classify them by their screw noises from thousands of miles away, they could hear the sound of an underwater implosion, even a small one. I read that the Navy recently deactivated the Cold War-era SOSUS network based at Iceland, but we still want to keep track of Russian subs. They wouldn’t have deactivated that network if they didn’t have something to replace the capability with. 

I still wonder why the submersible's surface ship didn't hear the implosion. They had passive sonar running to listen for the periodic pings from the sub and they were sitting right on top of it.

Sounds in deep water don't sound like they do in atmosphere, plus sound loses energy quickly in water.

Generated pings are high energy, specific frequency to overcome some of that.

SONARS even active don't ping, SONAR listens.

Will the NTSB or the Canadian counterpart investigate?

[janice6]

34 minutes ago, tous said:

I could tell you the techniques we used to effectively weld and mill titanium, but then I'd have to kill you.

 

Not an easy metal to work.

NB titanium was so expensive, we had security guards around the mills and presses to stop folk from stealing the shavings and selling it.

McDonnell Douglas, along with every other aerospace company, bought a lot of titanium.

We're talking tons, not pounds.

Your tax dollars at work.

We used NbTi in our superconducting work because it does go superconducting at liquid Helium temperatures.  We machined a sort of miniature cup core type of transformer, with Josephson Junctions coupling for sensors.

The material is gummy to machine, but we found small specialty shops that could drill holes about the size of a hair for depths of around 0.1 inches.  To me, a remarkable feat.

We had sub quantum level sensitivities with our device.

For experimental work we used Lead since it was easy to form and would also go superconducting at proper temps.  It deteriorated from being warmed through liquid Oxygen temperatures.  But good for lab work.

**

In physics, the Josephson effect is a phenomenon that occurs when two superconductors are placed in proximity, with some barrier or restriction between them. It is an example of a macroscopic quantum phenomenon, where the effects of quantum mechanics are observable at ordinary, rather than atomic, scale. The Josephson effect has many practical applications because it exhibits a precise relationship between different physical measures, such as voltage and frequency, facilitating highly accurate measurements.

The Josephson effect produces a current, known as a supercurrent, that flows continuously without any voltage applied, across a device known as a Josephson junction (JJ). These consist of two or more superconductors coupled by a weak link. The weak link can be a thin insulating barrier (known as a superconductor–insulator–superconductor junction, or S-I-S), a short section of non-superconducting metal (S-N-S), or a physical constriction that weakens the superconductivity at the point of contact (S-c-S).

Josephson junctions have important applications in quantum-mechanical circuits, such as SQUIDs, superconducting qubits, and RSFQ digital electronics. The NIST standard for one volt is achieved by an array of 20,208 Josephson junctions in series.^[1]

^{https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephson_effect}

 A Squid is what we worked with. (A Superconducting Quantum Interference Device)

[Eric]

4 minutes ago, Silentpoet said:

Like somebody else said maybe they heard it and kept silent about it. That or the general lack of being thoroughly professional that the CEO seemed to encourage.

Both strong possibilities. Now that the search is over, the blame game will start and there are probably more than a few people in the company and/or on the surface ship who are thinking of covering their asses.

[tous]

7 minutes ago, janice6 said:

We used NbTi in our superconducting work

Are you referring to an Nioium/Titanium alloy or Negative Bias Temperature instability?

We experimented with Josephson Junctions as a means to produce faster processors.

The logistics to make that work were just not practical then, but I believe the concept still has merit.

[Eric]

1 minute ago, tous said:

Sounds in deep water don't sound like they do in atmosphere, plus sound loses energy quickly in water.

Generated pings are high energy, specific frequency to overcome some of that.

SONARS even active don't ping, SONAR listens.

Will the NTSB or the Canadian counterpart investigate?

A US sonar listening station of some kind hundreds or thousands of miles away heard the implosion. During the Cold War, our Navy used an ELF (Extremely Low Frequency) radio transmitter to send short messages to submerged submarines all over the planet. The transmitter was in Nebraska and the messages were transmitted into bedrock, where they were carried throughout the world and its oceans. I'm assuming the system is still in use, in some form. Granted, that system would use a very powerful transmitter, but it illustrates the fact that low frequency sound travels great distances in dense mediums.

That submersible was small and every bit of battery power it had was precious. I doubt if the mechanism generating the periodic pings was large or powerful. It seems like the sound of something as violent and powerful as an implosion at that depth would have been heard by a passive sonar receiver in such close proximity.

[janice6]

3 minutes ago, tous said:

Are you referring to an Nioium/Titanium alloy or Negative Bias Temperature instability?

We experimented with Josephson Junctions as a means to produce faster processors.

The logistics to make that work were just not practical then, but I believe the concept still has merit.

Niobium Titanium Nb-Ti to us on the project.  Josephson Junctions were put on the eyepiece end of a telescope and astronomers used them to scan the surface of Jupiter.  They used a sub-millimeter wavelength of about 90 GHz to see.  it's one of the "windows" in the moisture in the atmosphere where there is no loss of signal due to absorption. 

Yes, the process of tunneling is useful in computing, but very low signal levels so thermal noise is a problem somewhere along the line.  We did experimental work building a Fiber optic computer of a Terabit with all optical processing, about a cubic foot, instead.

[tous]

Eric, I agree.

I was pondering.

The Transportation Safety Board of Canada (their NTSB) must investigate the cause of the mishap before ass-covering and politics makes the cause unknowable.

Given Trudeau's penchant for being a dictator, I doubt that any investigation will be allowed.

 

[Eric]

13 minutes ago, tous said:

Eric, I agree.

I was pondering.

The Transportation Safety Board of Canada (their NTSB) must investigate the cause of the mishap before ass-covering and politics makes the cause unknowable.

Given Trudeau's penchant for being a dictator, I doubt that any investigation will be allowed.

 

I don't know. The crash site is in international waters and OceanGate is an American company, but the Polar Prince is a Canadian flagged vessel. It is a hell of a can of worms and everyone is going to want to get their harrumphs in. I'm sure the media will use coverage of this circus to full advantage, for their own purposes.