Thoughts on legalizing heroin

[Big Dog Dad]

I know it will never happen, but if heroin was legalized, you would have a lot less deaths. Addicts would know that they were getting a purified product (no elephant tranquilizer, etc.) We've already proven that you can't control these illegal activities. How long did Prohibition last before the govt finally went OK to booze again? Obviously the drug cartels are so organized and with advanced technology and with enough money to bribe every high level official looking the other way, it wouldn't be legalized, but is it worth it to bring up the subject to the public. Addicts will be addicts, no matter what, but if it was legalized, can you imagine the Super Bowl commercials for the new and improved crap?

-=BDD=-

[jmohme]

I don't know. Heroin is a really dangerous drug with 100% chance of addition. Even regulated it would be far to easy to abuse.

[Moshe]

Might as well legalize crack too then?  The most common drug that I encountered while working in the Webb County Jail doing Federal BORCAP in the USBP was heroine.  The people you interviewed in a large room with just two guys weren't really dangerous when they were on heroine.  But, when they went into withdrawls were at the dangerous stage.  Kind of like a raging lunatic.  Someone you would have to put hands on.  Anymore they take fentanyl illegally and just die.  

Heroine is quite close chemically to morphine.  I know people who have been given morphine as a pain medication.  They can never break the cycle.  I remember when I was nearly killed in the line of duty, dying, again, coming back, dying again, coming back, being told my organs were failing.  Death was just being gone, there was nothing.  But, once they stabilized me, they gave me my own plunger of morphine drip, I would hit that button until I became nauseous.  It was around 2000, I remember, because I was married in 1999. I was in the Catholic hospital in that town, that was the best there was at the time.  A nun came in and asked if she could pray with me.  I said, "Why not, we have the same G-d."  

She began babbling.  I knew Latin, I knew Spanish, these were neither.  I told her to stop, I said to her, "I know Latin, and I know Spanish, and your words are neither, it sounds kind of New Agey."

She glared at me and said, "Don't disparage the New Age!"

She was a full on witch in a Habit.  I yelled, "Get out of my room, witch!"

She actually hissed at me and left.

That creeped me out enough I left the hospital sooner than I should have.  I was sick as hell when I went back to work early.  But, I didn't sit around and think, "I gots to gets me some more morphine."  I was just happy to be alive, and young and stupid, thinking I was ready and tougher than I was.  I was within the first few years of marriage.  I don't have addiction problems.  I take hydrocodone for pain.  It only takes the edge off.  But, that is what pain management doctors are for.  Most are incompetent.  Some dole out morphine to those who don't need it.  I know a morphine addict, who didn't want the manageable, correctable problem solved or fixed, because she just needed that fix, and travels a long, long way even after they moved, to get that fix.

Hell, if I didn't have to take medication and supplements every day to drag this old ass corpse around, I would be a happier person.  But, time and disease are not for the faint hearted.  As one older man who retired long before I did told me all the time, "Better living through pharmacology."  I didn't know what he meant at the time.  Unfortunately, I do now.

So, heavy drug use recreationally will destroy lives, as those folks probably have an addictive personality to begin with.  I had a good friend die from alcoholism.  Any substance you abuse for recreational use, will make you its bitch, not the other way round.

 

 

 

[Walt Longmire]

Heroin is already legal in many places. You can shoot up with no consequences. Free needles. Safe injection sites. 

[NPTim]

1 hour ago, Big Dog Dad said:

I know it will never happen, but if heroin was legalized, you would have a lot less deaths. Addicts would know that they were getting a purified product (no elephant tranquilizer, etc.) We've already proven that you can't control these illegal activities. How long did Prohibition last before the govt finally went OK to booze again? Obviously the drug cartels are so organized and with advanced technology and with enough money to bribe every high level official looking the other way, it wouldn't be legalized, but is it worth it to bring up the subject to the public. Addicts will be addicts, no matter what, but if it was legalized, can you imagine the Super Bowl commercials for the new and improved crap?

-=BDD=-

Problem is, most Americans drank in some form or another. Not the case with heroin or any other drug, with perhaps the exception of weed. 

[Wyzz Kydd]

What business is if of the government what adults do in the privacy of their homes?  If they go out in public intoxicated and harm someone, or resort to crime to feed their habit that's different, but if they want to rot their body with that crap I say give it to them for free and hope it kills them quickly so society can be improved by their absence.  Heroin, crack, cocaine, oxy, knock yourself out, just don't let it impact other people.

[Moshe]

The problem is what happens to other people outside your home.  It always ends up affecting the public through crime and violence.   What happens when one administration says go for it.  Then, the next outlays it?  Chaos, crime, violence, death.  One thing leads to another NSFW:

 

[Historian]

15 minutes ago, Wyzz Kydd said:

 Heroin, crack, cocaine, oxy, knock yourself out, just don't let it impact other people.

The problem with narcotics is it requires an infrastructure.  It's not like having your own pot plant.  It requires people who know what they are doing in production and logistics.  They exist for the purpose of exploitation, extortion, murder, rape, terrorism, and upholding corrupt politicians.    It was directly used to help fund the 9/11 attacks.  The cocaine of the 1980s upheld communist revolutions in South America and have helped promote the human trafficking of today.

Just look at Mexico to see the hell it's brought them.

It's not in the interest of a nation to look away at organized crime.  Even if you legalize the drug here are damn few who could be productive members of society for long on a dreadful drug like heroin. 

Heroin, much like meth, appears to steal one's soul.

Edited April 2, 2019 by Historian

[Wyzz Kydd]

14 minutes ago, Historian said:

The problem with narcotics is it requires an infrastructure.  It's not like having your own pot plant.  It requires people who know what they are doing in production and logistics.  They exist for the purpose of exploitation, extortion, murder, rape, terrorism, and upholding corrupt politicians.    It was directly used to help fund the 9/11 attacks.  The cocaine of the 1980s upheld communist revolutions in South America and have helped promote the human trafficking of today.

Just look at Mexico to see the hell it's brought them.

It's not in the interest of a nation to look away at organized crime.  Even if you legalize the drug here are damn few who could be productive members of society for long on a dreadful drug like heroin. 

Heroin, much like meth, appears to steal one's soul.

I think you misunderstood.  I think it should be legal.  If it's legal, at one stroke you virtually eliminate the criminal element involved in producing and selling drugs, just as moonshining dropped of significantly when prohibition ended.

[holyjohnson]

if all drugs are legalized within a generation we could cure the drug problem by culling out the addicts by self medication.

and i think if we legalize Marijuana there`s not a whole lot of legal ground to arbitrarily ban any other drugs.

with the responsibility to be a junkie you also have to accept the responsibility of overdosing,because it won`t be anyone else s to Narcan them back or give any treatment at a hospital.

prohibition does`nt work especially when it keeps getting less prohibitive every year.

just my humble opinion.

[Historian]

1 hour ago, Wyzz Kydd said:

I think you misunderstood.  I think it should be legal.  If it's legal, at one stroke you virtually eliminate the criminal element involved in producing and selling drugs, just as moonshining dropped of significantly when prohibition ended.

No.  I didn't mistake anything you said. 

I don't think it's in the interest of anyone to legalize a product whose purpose is to destroy the user.  A product that deadly that it pales in consideration to others.  A product that has lead to the destruction of empires...who made it legal at first...and could not stop it later. 

Forgive me but it's the height of hubris to believe that by making it legal you do anything but legitimize a criminal infrastructure.  Bayer is not going to start making heroin. More importantly the very agricultural products used to produce these drugs are grown where?  In some of the most special places in the world...Afghanistan, the golden triangle of South East Asia, among others.

With whiskey, beer, wine, there was a structure that allowed many of these companies to produce other related products.  Fruit juice, grain related products for farm and home, industrial uses, and of course the five whiskey makers who were allowed to produce for medicinal reasons.  Hell, i've never understood how very low THC marijuana isn't used in textiles in the US.

It is not the same with heroin.

Comparing moonshine to heroin is comparing oranges to death's own hand.

Moonshine continues.  The reason it's not as big as it once was...is it's easier to to go the ABC and get yer jar.  There's no money in it at a small level.  That's why there are less than about 30 major distillers in America.  Just about everything made for sale in the US...comes from these same sources.  Pappy Van Winkle comes out of the same plant as Weller 12.

It is also purely an interest in taxation that killed shine.  That and the crap that was made.  If you're name isn't Popcorn you may not be making the best.

 

Edited April 2, 2019 by Historian

[Paul53]

In a medium security prison, I treated the same prisoner 3 times in 10 months for heroin overdose. I guess the problem is entrenched in the US.

Edited April 2, 2019 by Paul53

[Wyzz Kydd]

I think it's the height of hubris to believe that you have a right to make decisions for others about what they do with their bodies.  If they want to kill themselves shooting that crap into their veins what business is it of yours?  Are you their boss?  Their parent? Their superior?  I'm not just talking about heroin, I'm talking about any drug.  The government usurps citizen's rights to make their own decisions.  Is doing heroin a stupid decision?  I think so, definitely, but IMHO it's not my duty, or yours, to decide that since it's stupid and destructive I'm going to stop someone from doing it.  Now if they go out in public and present a danger to other's I have a legitimate interest in what they're doing.  If they steal to feed that habit society has a right to say, no you can't do that.

If you think there aren't companies out there who would jump into that market (both growing and producing) if it were legal then I think you're naive. 

Edited April 2, 2019 by Wyzz Kydd

[Wyzz Kydd]

Please explain why you have a right to make that decision for them, and crimes that arise from intoxication or an attempt to feed that habit are already illegal.

[Wyzz Kydd]

2 hours ago, Moshe said:

The problem is what happens to other people outside your home.  It always ends up affecting the public through crime and violence.   What happens when one administration says go for it.  Then, the next outlays it?  Chaos, crime, violence, death.  One thing leads to another NSFW:

 

If you support the illegality of drugs due to what people may do under the influence, or the actions they take to feed the habit then by the same logic you support gun control.  

It's illegal to kill people, should we make guns illegal?

It's illegal to steal, should we make TVs illegal since people steal to buy them?

It's illegal to drive drunk, should we make alcohol illegal?

It's illegal to drive on heroin, should heroin be illegal?

 

What's the difference, logically, between those last two questions?

[Moshe]

The Second Amendment guarantees you have the right to bear arms, not **** in the park and depend on the public dole, and kill little old ladies for your next fix.

[Wyzz Kydd]

23 minutes ago, Moshe said:

The Second Amendment guarantees you have the right to bear arms, not **** in the park and depend on the public dole, and kill little old ladies for your next fix.

I'll mark that down as non-responsive your honor since I specifically said in the privacy of your own home and as long as you didn't do other things that were already illegal.

 

So I ask again, if the person isn't violating any other laws why is it your business Moshe?

[railfancwb]

In a medium security prison, I treated the same prisoner 3 times in 10 months for heroin overdose. I guess the problem is entrenched in the US.

And even in that “controlled” environment prohibition didn’t work.


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[Historian]

1 hour ago, Wyzz Kydd said:

I think so, definitely, but IMHO it's not my duty, or yours, to decide that since it's stupid and destructive I'm going to stop someone from doing it. 

Actually, it is my duty.  I swore an oath to uphold the constitution of our nation and my state.  As long as the product is illegal i was do whatever it takes to ensure that I uphold that oath.  At times i am also the boss, parent, guardian, etc.  It's the nature of the job.

The problem is:  Heroin does not affect one person in the privacy of their home.  You have the right to do whatever you want as long as you accept the consequences. 

Understand: Rights end when it affects the rights of others. 

At the root this is a national security issue.  Please reread what i wrote about the support network of international terrorist organizations, organized crime (not much different if you ask me) and do some of your own reading. 

It is a myth that it's a crime that affects only one person.

Edited April 2, 2019 by Historian

[PeterG7]

What’s needed is a more judicious use of narcan. How many times should a junkie be revived? Me thinks once is enough for a “mistake” and twice for a learning experience.

 

 

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[Wyzz Kydd]

12 minutes ago, Historian said:

Actually, it is my duty.  I swore an oath to uphold the constitution of our nation and my state.  As long as the product is illegal i was do whatever it takes to ensure that I uphold that oath.  At times i am also the boss, parent, guardian, etc.  It's the nature of the job.

The problem is:  Heroin does not affect one person in the privacy of their home.  You have the right to do whatever you want as long as you accept the consequences. 

Understand: Rights end when it affects the rights of others. 

At the root this is a national security issue.  Please reread what i wrote about the support network of international terrorist organizations, organized crime (not much different if you ask me) and do some of your own reading. 

It is a myth that it's a crime that affects only one person.

I agree with a lot of what you said, most especially that my rights end when they impinge on yours and vice versa. But, semantically your answer is still non-responsive to the question of whether the government has the right to dictate what individuals do to themselves. I fundamentally disagree with the idea of victimless crimes or crimes where the victim and the perpetrator are the same person.

Suicide, seatbelts, helmets, drugs, prostitution (when freely entered into), all these are examples of the government regulating individual choices that free people should be able to make for themselves.  Can bad things arise from these activities? Certainly, but are you saying people shouldn’t be allowed to do bad things to themselves? If so where is the line drawn and MOST importantly who gets to decide.  Fried foods are bad for me, does someone somewhere have the right to keep me from eating them? Seatbelts might save my life, so Uncle Sam says I must wear them. Must I also eat three servings of vegetables a day? It would probably help me live longer after all.

Whenever this type of debate arises those in favor of more government control of individual behavior inevitably point to secondary actions which are independently illegal. For example heroin should be illegal because someone may drive under the influence, which is independently illegal.

Of course as an officer of the law you have a duty to enforce the laws as written. I’m sure you do it well, I appreciate that you do it, and I wish you success and safety as you do your job. We need people like you.

That doesn’t mean you can’t question the morality of laws and think they should be different.

I believe, and researched and wrote a paper on it in grad school, that when drugs are made legal businesses step into the arena and offer those products to the public. Since there is no longer the ‘potential cost’ of incarceration, margins fall and illegal organizations can’t compete. Is illegal prostitution a problem in the parts of Nevada where prostitution is legal. Are gangs attacking marijuana stores in Colorado?

I’ll ask once more, if heroin were legal and an individual is shooting up at home how is anyone other than that individual and his family directly harmed? Citing theft and DUI don’t count as those are already illegal.

[ASH]

what about  Colorado  ?

 

[Huaco Kid]

The Spice must flow!

[Huaco Kid]

Opium first,  then heroin.

China kinda rolled with it.

[Wyzz Kydd]

5 minutes ago, Huaco Kid said:

The Spice must flow!

I have no interest in sticking needles in myself or snorting crap up my nose, but if melange were a real thing I would probably give it a try and not worry about blue eyes.