Solar panels are starting to die. What will we do with the megatons of toxic trash?

[Dric902]

What to do with them......recycle them obviously

[railfancwb]

On 4/14/2021 at 9:43 AM, gwalchmai said:

Probably the best thing I've taken away from Dennis is his insistence that "the perfect is the enemy of the good". Alternative energy is a great illustration of this concept. The left promised great things from ALTENG, but they also demand ZERO impact on Gaea. This perfection is simply not possible, which is why we used to accept tradeoffs between energy and impact, and using costs to manage those tradeoffs. Now we have an electorate which believes the politicians' promise of infinite energy at very low costs with zero environmental impact, which gives us results like $4 2x4s. 

$4 2x4s? More like $8 around here. 

[railfancwb]

2 hours ago, Dric902 said:

What to do with them......recycle them obviously

How? And at what cost? Leaving behind what [toxic?] waste?

The classic recyclables are aluminum drink cans, newsprint, and corrugated cardboard. Beyond those the issues are less clear cut and the task far more challenging. 

[railfancwb]

From time to time I have sought “net carbon footprint” information for energy items. That’s from gathering and processing raw materials through manufacturing and delivery to retail and then the customer all the way out the door through recycling to the land fill.

Consider the sixty watt equivalent light bulb. Start with the basic incandescent, then its twisty fluorescent replacement, and finally the LED. Factor in life lengths, energy consumption in use, and energy to recycle and bury.

So far I’ve been unable to learn more than energy consumption and expected lives as per the packages in stores. 

[Dric902]

42 minutes ago, railfancwb said:

How? And at what cost? Leaving behind what [toxic?] waste?

The classic recyclables are aluminum drink cans, newsprint, and corrugated cardboard. Beyond those the issues are less clear cut and the task far more challenging. 

https://werecyclesolar.com/recycle/?utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=recycling&msclkid=c9e8c702197f1bdb6fada77acee09b1a

 

[pipedreams]

"A recent Harvard Business Review study concluded that solar panels are being replaced faster than expected due to various economic incentives, warning of a rising mountain of solar panel trash “of existentially damaging proportions” unless incentives are adopted to drive down the high costs of recycling.

“It’s a spiritual pursuit,” he added. “There’s the idea that … we’ll protect the natural environment by being dependent on natural energy flows like sunlight. It’s not a scientific view. It actually is worse for the environment.”

“We’ve been in a sort of hypnotic trance,” Shellenberger said, referring to what he characterized as the misguided belief that solar power is an environmentally-friendly alternative to traditional forms of power generation like nuclear."

https://www.theepochtimes.com/looming-solar-panel-waste-tsunami-reveals-dark-side-of-renewables-expert_3888786.html

"Business Review concluded that the bright promise of more widespread adoption of solar energy as an environmentally friendly alternative “would darken quickly as the industry sinks under the weight of its own trash.”"

"“I think it comes from a kind of a deeply romantic and very ideological place, a very idealized imagination,” he said of the push for adoption of solar."

Edited July 6, 2021 by pipedreams

[gwalchmai]

OK, just how much space is needed for "78 million metric tons of solar panels"? Couldn't we just dig a big hole in Colorado or Utah or New Jersey and bury it? Sure, it sounds like a lot, but we often underestimate the scale of the "miles & miles of miles & miles" we don't use.

Also, there's that big volcano in Hawaii.

[pipedreams]

1 minute ago, gwalchmai said:

OK, just how much space is needed for "78 million metric tons of solar panels"? Couldn't we just dig a big hole in Colorado or Utah or New Jersey and bury it? Sure, it sounds like a lot, but we often underestimate the scale of the "miles & miles of miles & miles" we don't use.

Also, there's that big volcano in Hawaii.

How about New Jersey,  Colorado & Utah are sort pretty. 

[railfancwb]

On 4/14/2021 at 9:43 AM, gwalchmai said:

Probably the best thing I've taken away from Dennis is his insistence that "the perfect is the enemy of the good". Alternative energy is a great illustration of this concept. The left promised great things from ALTENG, but they also demand ZERO impact on Gaea. This perfection is simply not possible, which is why we used to accept tradeoffs between energy and impact, and using costs to manage those tradeoffs. Now we have an electorate which believes the politicians' promise of infinite energy at very low costs with zero environmental impact, which gives us results like $4 2x4s. 

Where can you find 4x2x8 for $4

[Batesmotel]

Take all the solar panels, used up windmills and spend fuel rods and pile them all in The District of Columbia. Then send in every politician we can round up. Fence the whole toxic mess off and let them rot. 

[jmax]

Recycling is and will continue to be a major problem for solar panels and their controllers to generate useable AC voltage and to connect to power lines. The panels themselves use nickel and silver alloys to connect the solar cells to controllers to the outside. Nickel is a very reactive metal and a certain percentage of the population is allergic to it. In the beginning of the EU a number of coins were basically pure nickel and had to be removed from circulation. But silver is worse as it and it’s oxides attack the bottom of the food chain and kills it dead making recycling panels a priority and difficult.

Now we get to the controllers, most are potted in epoxies for moisture protection precluding simple disassembly and would probably require them bring ground up to safely recover a large variety of toxic materials including again nickel, silver, phosphorus, low levels of arsenic and other nasties.

In a former life I was concerned about such things including supply chain, EOL (end of life) and risk assessments using a variety of analytical tools. 
 

I would be very reluctant to get solar panels due to environmental problems.

 

Edited July 6, 2021 by jmax

[gwalchmai]

2 hours ago, railfancwb said:

Where can you find 4x2x8 for $4

I didn't say "x8"...

[gwalchmai]

2 hours ago, Batesmotel said:

Take all the solar panels, used up windmills and spend fuel rods and pile them all in The District of Columbia. Then send in every politician we can round up. Fence the whole toxic mess off and let them rot. 

Bates, I am a student of 50s moviedom, and after seeing what radiation can do to geckos and ants I'd be skeered to irradiate that swamp.

[gwalchmai]

2 hours ago, pipedreams said:

How about New Jersey,  Colorado & Utah are sort pretty. 

Jersey is over 7,000 square miles of land area. What would it take? 20? And I'm sure we'd be able to find some experienced trash contractors to manage it.

[jfost11]

4 hours ago, gwalchmai said:

Also, there's that big volcano in Hawaii.

I'm not sure that will please the volcano like a young virgin will. Hey, do you think we could convince the volcano that Kamala is a virgin? Yeah, probably not. The skank stank is strong with that one.

[railfancwb]

2 hours ago, gwalchmai said:

I didn't say "x8"...

Meant 2”x4”x8’. Sorry I wasn’t clearer. 

[janice6]

On 4/14/2021 at 5:52 PM, gwalchmai said:

Fortunately we still have Minnesota, and they love ALTENG.

Some of my family works for the MN Power company.  The Power company touts "alternative energy" but the base is still Nuclear!  They just don't advertise that.

[railfancwb]

4 minutes ago, janice6 said:

Some of my family works for the MN Power company.  The Power company touts "alternative energy" but the base is still Nuclear!  They just don't advertise that.

Nuclear arguably is among the better choices. Ideally it will be partnered with hydro electric capable of use as pumped storage.

Steam plants, whether heated by fossil fuel or nuclear energy, like to be started and kept running. They are poor at speed up and slow down. In hot summer days or cold winter nights, demand may exceed their steady load capacity thus temporary peaking power will be needed. In mild weather their full capacity may not be needed so storing “surplus” electricity for future use as peaking power is desirable. A properly designed hydroelectric facility could run generators to supply some peaking power, and when demand is down use those generators in reverse as pumps to store water for later power generation.

https://www.tva.com/Energy/Our-Power-System/Hydroelectric/Raccoon-Mountain

 

[gwalchmai]

11 hours ago, railfancwb said:

Meant 2”x4”x8’. Sorry I wasn’t clearer. 

Yeah, I understood. A 0.5' long 2x4 is still technically a 2x4 (and probably can be bought for $4 )

 

[gwalchmai]

Nuclear will be over-regulated an cost over-runned until it becomes expensive enough to meter.

[railfancwb]

On 7/7/2021 at 6:52 AM, gwalchmai said:

Nuclear will be over-regulated an cost over-runned until it becomes expensive enough to meter.

Suspect much (most?) of the costs to be offset by metering electricity cover distribution infrastructure rather than power generation. Believe my monthly electric bill includes a base which much be paid as long as I’m connected, even if usage was absolute zero.