Trayvon II: Ahmaud Arbery

[SC Tiger]

At the end of the day, you cannot chase someone down, get out of your vehicle brandishing a weapon, and then claim that you shot him in self defense.  

This is why you don't engage in deadly force vs someone who allegedly stole something.  Whatever they took - tools, money, etc - will pale in comparison to what you could spend to get out of that mess.  And that assumes you were in the right and can get out of it.

[SC Tiger]

On 5/10/2020 at 2:31 PM, Moshe said:

I have laid in wait for criminals the first five year of my career, mostly in the dark. I arrested 1,000's over that time period that way.  Was I bad?  Two tried to back me over a cliff over the Rio Grande.  I pulled my service pistol on them.  Was that bad?

Were you in law enforcement?  Because that changes things.  The two involved in this mess weren't.

21 hours ago, Dric902 said:

I can see the battle lines are being drawn

with a minimum of factual information 

speculation, single angle observations, “I heard”, “I see”

 

.

Honestly - some of the responses here make me wonder if I want to be associated with this place.  Not gonna lie.

[Historian]

11 minutes ago, SC Tiger said:

Were you in law enforcement?  Because that changes things.  The two involved in this mess weren't.

Honestly - some of the responses here make me wonder if I want to be associated with this place.  Not gonna lie.

Had the same thought.  But in general such threads are...rare here.  But i also think you'll pretty much find this type of thing on any firearms related board.  It's the nature of the beast.  Unless your on a 4h .22 rifle club's forum.

I should just know better than to get involved with threads like this.  That's my mistake.

And I might add.  I've had two debates here where i did not feel like i needed to reach for my flame retardant underwear. 

Came close.  I had my concerns.

Edited May 11, 2020 by Historian

[PPQer]

2 hours ago, AK_Stick said:

I don’t know about that, their whole 911 call revolves around seeing a black man running. 
 

There’s no history of break ins (so contrary to the 911 call it isn’t an “ongoing thing”)

There has been no video evidence of him being seen in the area at night. 
 

They (by their own admission) did not see him breaking in, nor did he appear to have stolen anything. 
 

They went and grabbed guns, and chased him down in a pickup, to which he changed directions multiple times in an attempt to avoid a confrontation. 
 

They had a tail vehicle, follow them to film the entire encounter. 
 

It looks premeditated, at the very least. 

The shooters didn't call 911, someone else did.  In the video of Arbery walking to the house, a person appears at the top left of the frame.  That is who supposedly made the call, and when he saw that person, that is when Arbery started "jogging".  The shooters saw him "hauling ass" by one of their houses and I think they heard the 911 call dispatched on a scanner, so they decided to jump into action.  So if it looks premeditated because of the wording of the 911 call, and they didn't make the call, does that change your opinion?

Other people have said they had items stolen, but nobody reported them.  It doesn't do any good anyway.  One resident had $2500 worth of fishing gear stolen.  It's interesting that the house he had a fixation on had a boat inside.  I wonder if that is where the fishing gear was.  That would explain why he comes back to it.  Don't try to deny it, pictures were released by the homeowner.

If items were being stolen, that would explain why someone reported seeing a person in the construction site.  IMO, that wouldn't normally be something people would report to 911, see last paragraph.  When neighborhoods start going bad or getting crime, people get a heightened sense of awareness.  I know, because I lived in one.  That would explain why someone would call 911 to report activity in the construction site, which isn't necessarily unusual.  IMO.

I would be interested to know if that house was locked just enough to keep the honest person honest, which is how it is often done on construction sites when there is not a lot of tools and materials being stored.  Or if it had a dead bolt and was solid and he actually broke in.

You're making an assumption of their guilt with very little knowledge of what actually happened.  Virtue signaling usually does.

There is talk on the other site about him "breaking and entering".  When I was in construction, builders didn't mind people walking around a job site because it was good for business.  To do so, they walked by a sign with the builders name and phone number on it.  Crews were sure not to leave anything potential harmful exposed, like boards with nails in them, etc.  Framers would bend nails over.  We did that to protect the builder from lawsuits.  I would never have called it breaking and entering, and when people came to the door and asked permission, we were always happy to let them look around.  A single house in an established neighborhood may be different, we were mostly working in phased subdivisions.  

 

 

 

[PPQer]

34 minutes ago, SC Tiger said:

Were you in law enforcement?  Because that changes things.  The two involved in this mess weren't.

Honestly - some of the responses here make me wonder if I want to be associated with this place.  Not gonna lie.

We are all in law enforcement.  "Evil prevails when good men do nothing."

 

I'm being facetious. 

[TBO]

Wikipedia page on the incident:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Ahmaud_Arbery

Sent from my Jack boot using Copatalk

[Ricordo]

As a former Disco Skate Dancing instructor I always encouraged students to try doin' a back double full.

[RenoF250]

33 minutes ago, PPQer said:

The shooters didn't call 911, someone else did.  In the video of Arbery walking to the house, a person appears at the top left of the frame.  That is who supposedly made the call, and when he saw that person, that is when Arbery started "jogging".  The shooters saw him "hauling ass" by one of their houses and I think they heard the 911 call dispatched on a scanner, so they decided to jump into action.  So if it looks premeditated because of the wording of the 911 call, and they didn't make the call, does that change your opinion?

Other people have said they had items stolen, but nobody reported them.  It doesn't do any good anyway.  One resident had $2500 worth of fishing gear stolen.  It's interesting that the house he had a fixation on had a boat inside.  I wonder if that is where the fishing gear was.  That would explain why he comes back to it.  Don't try to deny it, pictures were released by the homeowner.

If items were being stolen, that would explain why someone reported seeing a person in the construction site.  IMO, that wouldn't normally be something people would report to 911, see last paragraph.  When neighborhoods start going bad or getting crime, people get a heightened sense of awareness.  I know, because I lived in one.  That would explain why someone would call 911 to report activity in the construction site, which isn't necessarily unusual.  IMO.

I would be interested to know if that house was locked just enough to keep the honest person honest, which is how it is often done on construction sites when there is not a lot of tools and materials being stored.  Or if it had a dead bolt and was solid and he actually broke in.

You're making an assumption of their guilt with very little knowledge of what actually happened.  Virtue signaling usually does.

There is talk on the other site about him "breaking and entering".  When I was in construction, builders didn't mind people walking around a job site because it was good for business.  To do so, they walked by a sign with the builders name and phone number on it.  Crews were sure not to leave anything potential harmful exposed, like boards with nails in them, etc.  Framers would bend nails over.  We did that to protect the builder from lawsuits.  I would never have called it breaking and entering, and when people came to the door and asked permission, we were always happy to let them look around.  A single house in an established neighborhood may be different, we were mostly working in phased subdivisions.  

 

 

 

Virtue signalling?  You can disagree all you like but virtue signalling is a joke for 99% of the people here. 

Why are you so wrapped up in it?  How are you so sure of your facts?

A woman said she saw the kid jog everyday at the same time.  He probably was looking at the new house being built, he did not take anything.  I have done the same.

From the video it looked to me like dipshit #1 shot at him before he attacked.  He probably hoped to get the shotgun away before he could reload and did not relize dipshit #2 was armed.

Jackasses should not be out doing law enforcement's job.  They had no business chasing him down with guns.

[Historian]

1 hour ago, PPQer said:

We are all in law enforcement.  "Evil prevails when good men do nothing."

 

I'm being facetious. 

Wow.  You had me for a second.  I  was going to make a comment about 1200 hours of training at the academy and FTO.  hah!  You got me.  Nice one.

But in some ways you are right, too.  There's a lot to be said about being a good citizen.  We had some senior citizen volunteers that became so good at what they did...one in particular...that he became an evidence custodian and processor.   That man could lift prints from anything. 

Edited May 11, 2020 by Historian

[Historian]

14 minutes ago, RenoF250 said:

Jackasses should not be out doing law enforcement's job.  They had no business chasing him down with guns.

Following in from a distance with a cell phone was a safe bet.  He could have just been wrong instead of just arrested.

Edited May 11, 2020 by Historian

[PPQer]

16 minutes ago, RenoF250 said:

 How are you so sure of your facts?  

I am sure of the facts because I saw them with my own eyes.  I watched the videos.  What I've posted, other than peripheral issues like theft in the area, was based on what I saw on the video of the shooting.  When I posted that the shooters were idiots, I based that on the video.  When I posted that Arbery was walking, that was based on video.  When I posted that he started running after leaving the house, that was based on video.  When I posted that someone else made the 911 call, that was based on a police report and was in the video.

I never said they didn't act stupidly or were right to act.  I didn't say they didn't shoot Arbery.  My point has been that they didn't "hunt him down and murder him".  That is based on the FACT that the video shows Arbery running to the truck that was PARKED with the driver out and on foot.  It's hard to run someone down in a parked vehicle.  When I posted that Arbery could have gone the other way, that was based on the video.

The virtue signalers are pretending they know what the shooters were thinking, when they can't.  I think about the only thing we can be sure of being in their mind was if Arbery got control of that shotgun, Travis would die.  That's not a stretch.  

Now, a question for you:  How do you chase someone down in a parked truck?

 

[PPQer]

19 minutes ago, Historian said:

Wow.  You had me for a second.  I  was going to make a comment about 1200 hours of training at the academy and FTO.  hah!  You got me.  Nice one.

But in some ways you are right, too.  There's a lot to be said about being a good citizen

That phrase has been used against me over the years when I've posted along the lines of an HCP not being a badge, and it's not our place to get in the middle of stuff when we don't have the training or knowledge of the people involved.  That is what people like the shooters say online to justify doing stuff like they did.  When you disagree with people who think we should act, they call you a coward and spew that BS.  Ironic, isn't it.

Our place can be following a "suspect" at a distance with 911 on the phone.  Taking pictures and observing to provide LE with more information.  I've never seen my place as an HCP holder to defend people I don't know, or act like a cop.  My HCP has one use, defending myself and those I know.  I don't need it to go to the range or classes.

I've never defended what the shooters did, my only point has been they didn't "hunt him down to murder him".  They created the circumstance that lead to the death of Arbery, so they bear that responsibility.  It's the level of responsibility that is a source of contention.   Manslaughter, I would understand.  Murder involves intent.

There have been so many times over the years were the law abiding permit holders would make one little mistake, usually acting too quick, and it would completely turn the blame on themselves.  Like what Arbery did.

[AK_Stick]

1 hour ago, PPQer said:

The shooters didn't call 911, someone else did.  In the video of Arbery walking to the house, a person appears at the top left of the frame.  That is who supposedly made the call, and when he saw that person, that is when Arbery started "jogging".  The shooters saw him "hauling ass" by one of their houses and I think they heard the 911 call dispatched on a scanner, so they decided to jump into action.  So if it looks premeditated because of the wording of the 911 call, and they didn't make the call, does that change your opinion?

Other people have said they had items stolen, but nobody reported them.  It doesn't do any good anyway.  One resident had $2500 worth of fishing gear stolen.  It's interesting that the house he had a fixation on had a boat inside.  I wonder if that is where the fishing gear was.  That would explain why he comes back to it.  Don't try to deny it, pictures were released by the homeowner.

If items were being stolen, that would explain why someone reported seeing a person in the construction site.  IMO, that wouldn't normally be something people would report to 911, see last paragraph.  When neighborhoods start going bad or getting crime, people get a heightened sense of awareness.  I know, because I lived in one.  That would explain why someone would call 911 to report activity in the construction site, which isn't necessarily unusual.  IMO.

I would be interested to know if that house was locked just enough to keep the honest person honest, which is how it is often done on construction sites when there is not a lot of tools and materials being stored.  Or if it had a dead bolt and was solid and he actually broke in.

You're making an assumption of their guilt with very little knowledge of what actually happened.  Virtue signaling usually does.

There is talk on the other site about him "breaking and entering".  When I was in construction, builders didn't mind people walking around a job site because it was good for business.  To do so, they walked by a sign with the builders name and phone number on it.  Crews were sure not to leave anything potential harmful exposed, like boards with nails in them, etc.  Framers would bend nails over.  We did that to protect the builder from lawsuits.  I would never have called it breaking and entering, and when people came to the door and asked permission, we were always happy to let them look around.  A single house in an established neighborhood may be different, we were mostly working in phased subdivisions.  

 

 

 

I’m not sure where you’re getting your information from, but you apparently haven’t paid attention very closely. 
 

The shooters did infact call 911, to report a black man running down the road. 
 

There are no reports of anything being stolen except the dumbass dad’s truck gun being stolen is back in January. This unverifiable talk “you’ve heard of” is not substantiated by any facts. 
 

You’re now attempting to create a scenario where these guys aren’t the bad guys, to justify your position. They heard the call on a scanner? Why didn’t they put that in the police report?

[AK_Stick]

8 minutes ago, PPQer said:

That phrase has been used against me over the years when I've posted along the lines of an HCP not being a badge, and it's not our place to get in the middle of stuff when we don't have the training or knowledge of the people involved.  That is what people like the shooters say online to justify doing stuff like they did.  When you disagree with people who think we should act, they call you a coward and spew that BS.  Ironic, isn't it.

Our place can be following a "suspect" at a distance with 911 on the phone.  Taking pictures and observing to provide LE with more information.  I've never seen my place as an HCP holder to defend people I don't know, or act like a cop.  My HCP has one use, defending myself and those I know.  I don't need it to go to the range or classes.

I've never defended what the shooters did, my only point has been they didn't "hunt him down to murder him".  They created the circumstance that lead to the death of Arbery, so they bear that responsibility.  It's the level of responsibility that is a source of contention.   Manslaughter, I would understand.  Murder involves intent.

There have been so many times over the years were the law abiding permit holders would make one little mistake, usually acting too quick, and it would completely turn the blame on themselves.  Like what Arbery did.

Leaving your house with guns to chase a man down who has done nothing wrong, and changed course more than once to avoid you, and then confronting him with a weapon is intent. 

[TBO]

I am sure of the facts because I saw them with my own eyes.  I watched the videos.  What I've posted, other than peripheral issues like theft in the area, was based on what I saw on the video of the shooting.  When I posted that the shooters were idiots, I based that on the video.  When I posted that Arbery was walking, that was based on video.  When I posted that he started running after leaving the house, that was based on video.  When I posted that someone else made the 911 call, that was based on a police report and was in the video.
I never said they didn't act stupidly or were right to act.  I didn't say they didn't shoot Arbery.  My point has been that they didn't "hunt him down and murder him".  That is based on the FACT that the video shows Arbery running to the truck that was PARKED with the driver out and on foot.  It's hard to run someone down in a parked vehicle.  When I posted that Arbery could have gone the other way, that was based on the video.
The virtue signalers are pretending they know what the shooters were thinking, when they can't.  I think about the only thing we can be sure of being in their mind was if Arbery got control of that shotgun, Travis would die.  That's not a stretch.  
Now, a question for you:  How do you chase someone down in a parked truck?
 

Arbery did turn around and run away from the pick up... and the two bubbas chased him down, again. You keep ignoring that.

Sent from my Jack boot using Copatalk

[Historian]

41 minutes ago, PPQer said:

There have been so many times over the years were the law abiding permit holders would make one little mistake, usually acting too quick, and it would completely turn the blame on themselves.  Like what Arbery did.

Back about 2000 our local PD had an officer i truly liked.  On a stop one night, the suspect moved his car, and the video showed it went back...and then forwards.   My friend, a Marine vet, thought it was an attempt to kill him.  So he shot the suspect.  Sadly, he also put a few rounds down range as the car drove away.  And while it's perfectly legal to shoot a fleeing felon who is continuing to do wrong....in my state....he went to trial.

The department backed him at first.
The department went back against him and hung him out to dry.
The jury in the criminal case cleared him.
The jury in the civil case cleared him.
The department fired him.

He's now doing construction in South Dakota. Divorced, estranged from his children, and a chronic alcoholic.

I watched that video at least 100 times.  Only two people know what happened that day and one is dead.  It took less than 2 seconds for all hell to break lose.

Carry and gun.  You can expect to be judged.  Sometimes in the fractions of a second it takes to act.   Wear a badge.  You'll be judged by what you eat, how you look, how you talk. Sometimes even what you think.

The Arbery case isn't even close.  And those two men are going to pay for it.

Edited May 11, 2020 by Historian

[AK_Stick]

According to the initial police report, the McMichaels told police that they pursued Arbery because he resembled a suspect in a string of local burglaries. However, Glynn County Police Lt. Cheri Bashlor said in a May 8, 2020, interview that no burglaries had been reported in the neighborhood at all. The only report of a recent theft was reported on January 1, 2020, when someone stole a 9 mm pistol from an unlocked truck outside the McMichaels' home, but there was no description of a suspect in that case.

In the police report filed after Arbery’s killing, Gregory McMichael said the burglar had been caught on surveillance video and that Arbery matched the description of the suspect.

Since December of 2019, there were 3 reports of theft in the Satilla Shores Neighborhoods. Dec 8, Dec 28, Jan 1.

https://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/satilla-shores-break-ins-reported-months-before-ahmaud-arberys-killing

Larry English, the man who owns the house under construction, told The Washington Post that the structure was not robbed.

“That’s completely wrong. I’ve never had a police report or anything stolen from my property, or any kind of robbery,” he said.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/05/09/georgia-attorney-general-investigate-local-officials-handling-ahmaud-arberys-murder/

 

In the second call to 9-1-1, beginning at 1:14 p.m., a male caller said: "I'm out here at Satilla Shores ...There's a black male running down the street." The 9-1-1 dispatcher asked: "Where at Satilla Shores?" The caller replied: "I don't know what street we're on." The caller was then heard shouting: "Stop! ... Watch that. Stop, damn it! Stop!" The dispatcher tried to speak to the caller but did not receive a reply for several minutes. The caller later hung up

McMichael stated he and Travis got in the truck and drove down Satilla Drive toward Burford Drive McMichael stated when they arrived at the intersection of Satilla Drive and Holmes Drive, they saw the unidentified male running down Burford drive McMichael then stated Travis drive down Burford and attempted to cut off the male. stated the unidentified male turned around and began running back the direction from which he came and " Roddy "attempted to block him which was unsuccessful Michael stated he then jumped into the bed of the truck and he and Travis continued to Holmes in an attempt to intercept him .

McMichael stated they saw the unidentified male and shouted " stop stop, we want to talk to you " . Michael stated they pulled up beside the male and shouted stop again at which time Travis exited the truck with the shotgun .

https://www.vox.com/identities/2020/5/6/21249202/ahmaud-arbery-jogger-killed-in-georgia-video-shooting-grand-jury

https://int.nyt.com/data/documenthelper/6915-arbery-shooting/b52fa09cdc974b970b79/optimized/full.pdf#page=1

Commissioner Peter Murphy, who also said he spoke directly to Glynn County police about the incident, said officers at the scene concluded they had probable cause to make arrests and contacted Johnson’s office to inform the prosecutor of their decision. 

“They were told not to make the arrest,” Murphy said.

https://www.ajc.com/news/local/watch-gbi-updates-following-arrests-ahmaud-arbery-shooting/1aJbZe2uL9HrndjyWYjB2L/

 

 

 

So in summary.

1. There was no reported crime he "matched the description of" 
2. He did not break into, or steal anything from the home of Larry English
3. He attempted to change avoid conflict, and changed direction or dodged around vehicles on atleast 3 occasions.
4. The wording of the 911 transcript, matches what the father told police he was yelling, making it probably he's the 2nd caller.

Whats more

1. If there was no break in, or no robbery of Mr English's property, there was no legal reason for the McMichael's to persue him, or detain him.
2. The shooter, his father, and accomplice in the third vehicle, clearly admit to chasing Arbery. When he avoided the trail vehicle, they went to another street to try and intercept him.
3. They admit to pulling along side Arbery, before getting out of the vehicle, to confront him.

[Historian]

AK-Stick would make a fine detective.  Just saying.  He is clearly a trained observer. ?

Edited May 11, 2020 by Historian

[Moshe]

6 hours ago, RenoF250 said:

That idiot is dead, what more do you want to happen?

A full investigation as to what cell he might be a part of?  Just for a start.

[Historian]

24 minutes ago, Moshe said:

A full investigation as to what cell he might be a part of?  Just for a start.

Yeeeeaaahh....could be.  Worth a look.

[Moshe]

1 hour ago, Historian said:

Yeeeeaaahh....could be.  Worth a look.

Because, first we had Yawheh Bin Yaweh.  That broke up.  It was designed to murder white people or "traitors."  Then along came the Black (Shvartse) Israelites.  So, yes, worth looking into.  One doesn't just get up one morning and decide to assassinate the elderly on Federal Property.

[Dric902]

1 minute ago, Moshe said:

Because, first we had Yawheh Bin Yaweh.  That broke up.  It was designed to murder white people or "traitors."  Then along came the Black (Shvartse) Israelites.  So, yes, worth looking into.  One doesn't just get up one morning and decide to assassinate the elderly on Federal Property.

With respect 

that has nothing to do with this shooting. No evidence of any gang affiliation, cell membership, or “24” style super secret ulterior motives.

not a script, not a novel, not a B movie. Two civilians shot and killed a man, they must either justify it or pay a price for it.

the dead guys history, political views, Facebook opinions, twitter rants, arrest record, “What I would have done is....”

have nothing to do with it.

.

[ASH]

these are the red necks  ------  any one chases me down or tries to detain ,  and pull guns .  one or many are gonna get shot .  

 

 

 

[SC Tiger]

Something I haven't seen noted is that, had a law enforcement officer - IN UNIFORM - tried to stop this man, he may well have stopped to talk to them.

But two dumbasses bearing weapons and without any sort of credentials tried to stop him - and he probably thought he was going to get lynched or something.  HE HAD NO DAMN IDEA WHAT THEY WANTED!!!!!

As to the people who are using the fact he attacked his attacker, rather than running from them, as a defense of the two shooters - that may be the dumbest ******* thing I have ever read on the internet.  

[Historian]

I truly think he chose to fight because he thought it was the end.   Look at it from his point.  He's a black man.  Two white guys jump him from a truck with a gun.  

Simple as that.