willie-pete Posted September 16, 2018 Share Posted September 16, 2018 Light enough to see he is not complying, but not light enough to see she is in the wrong apartment? Her lawyer probably shouldn't lead with that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PATCHMAN Posted September 16, 2018 Share Posted September 16, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, willie-pete said: Light enough to see he is not complying, but not light enough to see she is in the wrong apartment? Her lawyer probably shouldn't lead with that. She walks into the apartment that she believes is her own and her mind is likely in condition white. Sees a person in "her" apartment that she knows doesn't belong there. She just went from condition white to condition red in a fraction of a split second. As per her training, she issues verbal commands. Probably enough light (ambient street lights? Light from another room? Light from TV screen?) in the apartment to "see" a figure continuing to approach her and not complying with her commands. During the entire episode, I'm guessing her attention has been focused on something other than the decor. Edited September 16, 2018 by PATCHMAN 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PATCHMAN Posted September 16, 2018 Share Posted September 16, 2018 On 9/14/2018 at 4:42 PM, willie-pete said: This is really a good faith question. I have been away from LE firearms training for a good while now and back in the dark ages ( sorry ) it was always use light to ID. Does any department/agency actually teach to shoot without light or to use light to ID target. Or is she a one-off aberration that went off her training for whatever reason? Even today, I doubt they teach the SOP for when you walk into a dark room is to reach for and flip on the nearest light switch. Some of the principles of low light survival is to never get caught backlit (she was here, light from the hallway). And don't compound the danger by also front lighting yourself (as she would have here, if she had flipped the nearest switch). But more importantly, she likely went into tunnel vision almost immediately. Most people (including some shooting instructors) don't understand tunnel vision. Some instructors will talk about it to their students and even fewer will actually teach techniques to to minimize its effects. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselMcBadass Posted September 16, 2018 Share Posted September 16, 2018 Seems everyone is accusing each other of being cop bashers or race baiters. Maybe our bias is actually being against being shot in our own homes? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willie-pete Posted September 16, 2018 Share Posted September 16, 2018 3 hours ago, PATCHMAN said: Even today, I doubt they teach the SOP for when you walk into a dark room is to reach for and flip on the nearest light switch. Some of the principles of low light survival is to never get caught backlit (she was here, light from the hallway). And don't compound the danger by also front lighting yourself (as she would have here, if she had flipped the nearest switch). But more importantly, she likely went into tunnel vision almost immediately. Most people (including some shooting instructors) don't understand tunnel vision. Some instructors will talk about it to their students and even fewer will actually teach techniques to to minimize its effects. SOP with flashlights used to be: If you are in the dark; stay in the dark. If you are in the light; light up the dark, Easy solution to avoid being backlit if the door was ajar as she said and she expected something was amiss on the other side. I also assume she had a light with her since she was in uniform. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borg warner Posted September 16, 2018 Share Posted September 16, 2018 There are one of two possibilities here: #1. She Fked up. It was a tragic accident. #2. It was not an accident. She was motivated to kill him. If #2, what was her motivation, and where is the evidence to support this scenario? And if #1, where is the evidence to support this scenario, keeping in mind that a suspect is innocent until proven guilty and that the burden of proof is on the accuser/accusers. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyzz Kydd Posted September 16, 2018 Share Posted September 16, 2018 Even if it is #1, which is what it sounds like to me, the dude is dead, she shot him, in his apartment where she had no right to be. Those facts aren’t contested. He had no duty to follow her commands, he may not have even realized she was a LEO. Had that been me she would have had a bunch of .45 caliber holes in her and some of the same people making excuses for her would be calling for my head. I guarantee you I wouldn’t have walked around free for days while local PD gave me the benefit of the doubt. LE or not, if you’re going to carry a gun you have a duty to act responsibly and exercise due care. Clearly she didn’t, at least not based on the currently established facts. She needs to do time and never again be allowed to carry a gun, period! 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselMcBadass Posted September 16, 2018 Share Posted September 16, 2018 People claiming his not following commands is justification for the shoot, how would you react if you woke up to someone in your dark apartment yelling at you? Most of you would be disoriented and confused as hell. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyzz Kydd Posted September 16, 2018 Share Posted September 16, 2018 I don’t live in an apartment, but if I woke up to someone I didn’t know in my home yelling at me I would almost certainly shoot them. Of course they would never get to the point where they could see me and yell anything, as alarms would be going off and I would be aiming at them as they entered a choke point well before they had an opportunity to say anything. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borg warner Posted September 16, 2018 Share Posted September 16, 2018 18 minutes ago, Wyzz Kydd said: Even if it is #1, which is what it sounds like to me, the dude is dead, she shot him, in his apartment where she had no right to be. Those facts aren’t contested. He had no duty to follow her commands, he may not have even realized she was a LEO. Had that been me she would have had a bunch of .45 caliber holes in her and some of the same people making excuses for her would be calling for my head. I guarantee you I wouldn’t have walked around free for days while local PD gave me the benefit of the doubt. LE or not, if you’re going to carry a gun you have a duty to act responsibly and exercise due care. Clearly she didn’t, at least not based on the currently established facts. She needs to do time and never again be allowed to carry a gun, period! That's what I said. She Fked up. BIG TIME. no one is contesting those facts. #1. She Fked up. It was a tragic accident. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyzz Kydd Posted September 16, 2018 Share Posted September 16, 2018 24 minutes ago, Borg warner said: That's what I said. She Fked up. BIG TIME. no one is contesting those facts. #1. She Fked up. It was a tragic accident. No. Entering the wrong apartment the way she did was a tragic accident, as you said she fked up. Reacting the way she did, under the circumstances we are aware of was unreasonable. I can’t imagine a concealed carrier in the same situation saying, ’whoops, my bad, I thought I was in my apartment, but it was my neighbor’s and I shot him because I couldn’t see and thought he was an intruder.” then walk, no charges? I don’t think so. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar_ml Posted September 16, 2018 Share Posted September 16, 2018 "accident" implies that it was somehow outside of her control. If she had managed to pay slightly more attention to what floor she was on, then this entire incident would not have occurred, just like the millions of other people that managed for many years to NOT enter the wrong place of abode and also failed to shoot the lawful inhabitant of that abode. At minimum it is negligence. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PATCHMAN Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 3 hours ago, willie-pete said: SOP with flashlights used to be: If you are in the dark; stay in the dark. If you are in the light; light up the dark, Easy solution to avoid being backlit if the door was ajar as she said and she expected something was amiss on the other side. I also assume she had a light with her since she was in uniform. How many fractions of a second lapsed between when she realized someone was in "her" apartment and when the first shot happened? You're saying she had time to deploy both her gun and her flashlight. How much did tunnel vision effect her reaction? You know tunnel vision, right? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PATCHMAN Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 4 hours ago, DieselMcBadass said: Seems everyone is accusing each other of being cop bashers or race baiters. Maybe our bias is actually being against being shot in our own homes? In her mind, she was in her own apartment. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselMcBadass Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 1 minute ago, PATCHMAN said: In her mind, she was in her own apartment. and in reality, she was not. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PATCHMAN Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 Just now, DieselMcBadass said: and in reality, she was not. Yes, I get that. But at the moment it happened, she believed she was entering her own apartment. 20/20 hindsight is great! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willie-pete Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 58 minutes ago, PATCHMAN said: How many fractions of a second lapsed between when she realized someone was in "her" apartment and when the first shot happened? You're saying she had time to deploy both her gun and her flashlight. How much did tunnel vision effect her reaction? You know tunnel vision, right? If the door ajar had given her a clue, she had plenty of time to back off to the side; drop all her ****, draw gun and light and then come up with a plan without opening the door and backlighting herself. Plan could have been to call for reinforcements, rethink " WTH am I and why is this red doormat outside my apt and why did my apartment number change " or finally , clear the apartment by herself. She definitely had tunnel vision ; that's why she is in this mess. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBO Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 If the door ajar had given her a clue, she had plenty of time to back off to the side; drop all her ****, draw gun and light and then come up with a plan without opening the door and backlighting herself. Plan could have been to call for reinforcements, rethink " WTH am I and why is this red doormat outside my apt and why did my apartment number change " or finally , clear the apartment by herself. She definitely had tunnel vision ; that's why she is in this mess..... and if she just entered the door like any other time.... your little scenario is all smoke. Sent from my Jackboot using Copatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASH Posted September 17, 2018 Author Share Posted September 17, 2018 (edited) the excuses all ended ......WHEN SHE ENTERED HIS APARTMENT . THE END she fucked up and plenty of people **** up and now she has to pay for it . go back to the other site . or your little hardly visited sub forums if you play child games there is russ p here to throw out the protection . - all arguments ,debates crying ends when SHE entered wrong apartment and shoots the tenent of that apartment dead. you enter my house by mistake and dont answer me when i call out , you get shot , be it cop , trash man ,neighbor , meter reader , dont matter . if you got no business there you make a dumb choice you pay for it . people know she is no cold blooded killer but SHE FUCKED UP / now take your lumps little girl and it is 100% fact if was not leo who shot the guy we not be getting paid leave, and walking around . we would still be in jail or maybe by now on bail Edited September 17, 2018 by ASH 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASH Posted September 17, 2018 Author Share Posted September 17, 2018 1 hour ago, PATCHMAN said: In her mind, she was in her own apartment. i dont think she knew what was in her mind if you are to dumb to realize im on wrong floor and entering wrong apartment . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willie-pete Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 17 minutes ago, TBO said: .... and if she just entered the door like any other time.... your little scenario is all smoke. Sent from my Jackboot using Copatalk A door ajar will and has always caused me to consider what is going on before entering. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBO Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 8 minutes ago, willie-pete said: A door ajar will and has always caused me to consider what is going on before entering. What exact condition was the door in? Do you know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willie-pete Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 https://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/crime/article218333735.html An arrest affidavit released Monday says Guyger’s apartment is directly below Jean’s at the South Side Flats, 1210 South Lamar. The affidavit, written by Officer David L. Armstong of the Texas Rangers, is based on what Guyger told the officer happened. It says she “inserted a unique door key, with an electronic chip, into the door key hole. The door, which was slightly ajar prior to Guyger’s arrival, fully opened under the force of the key insertion.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyzz Kydd Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 Just for clarity, what do those of you who are defending her actions (or at least appear to be) think the consequences should be based on the facts as known right now? Patchman are arguing she should walk, no charges? TBO (not sure you’re arguing FOR her) but should she be charged with a crime and convicted? A big what if for you as well, what if he had shot and killed her? His house, dark, unknown intruder yelling at him. You want someone in that situation charged? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar_ml Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 I don't understand how anyone can think that she shouldn't be charged with a crime. She ended the life of an innocent man in his own home. She has no legal justification for doing so, none at all. Yes, her viewpoint is that she thought she was somewhere else, and that he was doing something else. Her viewpoint in this only determines whether she committed murder or manslaughter, not whether she is innocent or guilty. If that wasn't true, then anyone could justify any crime by convincing a jury that they really didn't know what they were doing was wrong. Unfortunately, there seem to be more and more judges leaning towards that determination these days "Affluenza as a defense and it worked? Give me a break) From what I can tell, the only real question was what level of severity the charges will be, not whether she is guilty or innocent of them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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