My Good-Bad Car Week

[SC Tiger]

17 hours ago, Eric said:

Friend of mine was in a sorta-similar situation.  He had one car damaged so he bought a donor car.

What he did was take the donor car apart and sell the components on Ebay.  Kept what he needed and sold the rest.  I assume there was still a carcass to haul off. 

He wound up making money in the deal.

[SC Tiger]

On 2/25/2019 at 6:09 PM, janice6 said:

It is.  It's also interesting when they change it's purpose but not it's structural design.

I posted a while ago about my 1966 Mustang convertible.   I really loved driving that car.  It was one of my many  Mustangs.  I could buy any for $175 from the Insurance lot and put them on the road for myself for between $200 and $300 dollars.  Paint and all.

Anyway.  When the made the convertible they put about 3/16" thick steel plates bolted between the channels of the pan in the body under the driver and passenger seats to "re-enforce" the structure, since it now had no roof to stabilize it.

The fun was when you went across raised railroad tracks.  The driver could feel the steering wheel moving away from the drivers seat.  A little disconcerting.  When you jacked the car up you should open the doors so they wouldn't jam into the frame and chip the paint.

All in all, I loved driving that car! Marvelous performance considering it was a Big Ford 6 cylinder.  You couldn't lug it with the manual, too much torque.

A lot of what you described is why I just never fell in love with the original Mustangs.  Just seem too flimsy.

Edited March 7, 2019 by SC Tiger

[janice6]

16 minutes ago, SC Tiger said:

A lot of what you described is why I just never fell in love with the original Mustangs.  Just too flimsy.

You may not like them, that's your choice.  But all my comments about body flex is specifically with regard to the convertible.  None of the standard  bodies had this characteristic.  They were the same as all the other "pony" brands of this era.

[SC Tiger]

20 minutes ago, janice6 said:

You may not like them, that's your choice.  But all my comments about body flex is specifically with regard to the convertible.  None of the standard  bodies had this characteristic.  They were the same as all the other "pony" brands of this era.

To be fair I've never owned one.  I had a friend who had one (66 I think) so I know all the warts but probably none of the "good stuff" about it.   I also know a few things about the design.

His had a 4.6L V8 (I think) and a  Ford AODE transmission in it.  Not stock stuff.  And I'm sure the Camaro from that vintage wasn't much different.  The Mustang is just the one I'm familiar with and I could never get those issues out of my head.

What amazes me is how modern cars are stronger with what appears to be less steel in them.  Check this out:

 

Love how the dummy in the Bel Air gets hit in the face with the steering wheel.

Edited March 7, 2019 by SC Tiger

[janice6]

6 minutes ago, SC Tiger said:

To be fair I've never owned one.  I had a friend who had one (66 I think) so I know all the warts but probably none of the "good stuff" about it.   I also know a few things about the design.

His had a 4.6L V8 (I think) and a  Ford AODE transmission in it.  Not stock stuff.  And I'm sure the Camaro from that vintage wasn't much different.  The Mustang is just the one I'm familiar with and I could never get those issues out of my head.

What amazes me is how modern cars are stronger with what appears to be less steel in them.  Check this out:

 

Love how the dummy in the Bel Air gets hit in the face with the steering wheel.

The advent of computers has led to the ability to calculate a phenomenal number of nodes (infinite element analysis, etc.) almost instantaneously, to determine the specific portions of the structure that increase injury.  Therefore the emphasis has changed from the Insurance company's desire to minimize property damage to decrease their costs, to increasing the occupant safety to improve survivability.  Government regulation caused this change.

We haven't see as much change in automobile design, as we have seen change in the value of occupant's lives.  Now automobiles are made to crush predictively and protect the occupants.  Formerly the automobile was as rigid a structure as possible, to minimize the vehicle damage and pass the impact to the occupants.

[Eric]

Done with the donor. 

[janice6]

3 hours ago, Eric said:

Done with the donor. 

Take out insurance on it and claim that someone stripped it one night in your driveway.  Or not.

[SC Tiger]

17 hours ago, Eric said:

Done with the donor. 

That should buff right out.....

 

You could probably sell the wheels/tires on Ebay and get most of the donor car money back.  Plus the seats and maybe some interior pieces.  I assume the engine is shot.  Seats come out easy but often you can't buy new seats for an older car. 

Some of the other components might be valuable too.  There is a part on my truck that you can't get anymore, that is part of the fuel evap system.  You have to upgrade it to the new stuff which means more cost.  If I can get the old stuff for cheaper I'd go that route.

Are you going to weld in the new piece yourself or hire it out?

Edited March 8, 2019 by SC Tiger

[SC Tiger]

22 hours ago, janice6 said:

The advent of computers has led to the ability to calculate a phenomenal number of nodes (infinite element analysis, etc.) almost instantaneously, to determine the specific portions of the structure that increase injury.  Therefore the emphasis has changed from the Insurance company's desire to minimize property damage to decrease their costs, to increasing the occupant safety to improve survivability.  Government regulation caused this change.

We haven't see as much change in automobile design, as we have seen change in the value of occupant's lives.  Now automobiles are made to crush predictively and protect the occupants.  Formerly the automobile was as rigid a structure as possible, to minimize the vehicle damage and pass the impact to the occupants.

I would phrase the last paragraph differently - "We have seen a fundamental change in automobile design as a result of a change in the value of occupants lives."

Value of human life is also why many look the same now.  Hood heights have to be X to protect occupants.  That results in having to use a certain diameter wheel or it just doesn't look right.  And so on.

[Eric]

12 minutes ago, SC Tiger said:

That should buff right out.....

 

You could probably sell the wheels/tires on Ebay and get most of the donor car money back.  Plus the seats and maybe some interior pieces.  I assume the engine is shot.  Seats come out easy but often you can't buy new seats for an older car. 

Some of the other components might be valuable too.  There is a part on my truck that you can't get anymore, that is part of the fuel evap system.  You have to upgrade it to the new stuff which means more cost.  If I can get the old stuff for cheaper I'd go that route.

Are you going to weld in the new piece yourself or hire it out?

I’ll cut out the damage to the other car and weld in the new parts myself. I’ll paint it myself, if I can find a shop that rents out their paint booth by the day. I see such offers on Craig’s List occasionally. At the very least I’ll have to shoot the jams and the recess for the rear window. 

[SC Tiger]

9 minutes ago, Eric said:

I’ll cut out the damage to the other car and weld in the new parts myself. I’ll paint it myself, if I can find a shop that rents out their paint booth by the day. I see such offers on Craig’s List occasionally. At the very least I’ll have to shoot the jams and the recess for the rear window. 

Will you need to brace the other car before cutting the damaged parts out?  I'm guessing you should be able to make the parts align without doing that.

That is a LOT of car you've cut out there.

[Eric]

58 minutes ago, SC Tiger said:

Will you need to brace the other car before cutting the damaged parts out?  I'm guessing you should be able to make the parts align without doing that.

That is a LOT of car you've cut out there.

Yeah, I’ll brace it in a couple of places. The car doesn’t need much help in that area though. It is pretty rigid. 

What I cut off is 12 separate panels. I know I’ll need at least 9 of them. I grabbed the others just in case. I will put the wrecked car back together just the way it was originally built, except I’ll be using plug welds instead of spot welds. There will be three seam welds as well. If I do it right, there shouldn’t be any loss in structural integrity. 

[SC Tiger]

39 minutes ago, Eric said:

Yeah, I’ll brace it in a couple of places. The car doesn’t need much help in that area though. It is pretty rigid. 

What I cut off is 12 separate panels. I know I’ll need at least 9 of them. I grabbed the others just in case. I will put the wrecked car back together just the way it was originally built, except I’ll be using plug welds instead of spot welds. There will be three seam welds as well. If I do it right, there shouldn’t be any loss in structural integrity. 

The part that made me ask that is the rear window frame.  

The reason I asked about the bracing was that I wasn't sure if the parts came off in a way that would allow it to hold it's shape or go back into shape, or if you would have some play involved.  It looks like the rear quarter panel came apart right at a weld seam or something but I'm not sure how they do that on these things.  IE when you put the parts back in if everything goes back where it was, or if you'll have enough play that things like the rear window have a chance of not fitting if you don't brace it, etc.  Did the rear quarter come off at a seam or was that just where you were able to cut it?

For some reason I don't know how to ask what I'm asking here.....

 

Edited March 8, 2019 by SC Tiger

[janice6]

2 hours ago, SC Tiger said:

I would phrase the last paragraph differently - "We have seen a fundamental change in automobile design as a result of a change in the value of occupants lives."

Value of human life is also why many look the same now.  Hood heights have to be X to protect occupants.  That results in having to use a certain diameter wheel or it just doesn't look right.  And so on.

I phrased that paragraph that way, because the change in value of the occupants lives was not done willingly by the insurance companies.  This increased the cost of each minor accident by increasing the amount of property damage done, due to the required crush in the design to protect the occupants.  It's cheaper to pay for deaths of the occupants than for injuries.  Not nice to say, but a fact of the business.

I'm not saying that insurance companies intended that the occupants die, just that it is a statistical fact, and statistics on damages is how Insurance companies make money and stay in business.  It is a simple fact of their business.  When the vehicles began to be designed to minimize injuries to occupants, Lawyers began to fight for more money for those injuries due to the new emphasis placed on injuries instead of property damage.  

The change was brought about grudgingly by insurance companies because the government wrote regulations to require structural changes.  

[Eric]

39 minutes ago, SC Tiger said:

The part that made me ask that is the rear window frame.  

The reason I asked about the bracing was that I wasn't sure if the parts came off in a way that would allow it to hold it's shape or go back into shape, or if you would have some play involved.  It looks like the rear quarter panel came apart right at a weld seam or something but I'm not sure how they do that on these things.  IE when you put the parts back in if everything goes back where it was, or if you'll have enough play that things like the rear window have a chance of not fitting if you don't brace it, etc.  Did the rear quarter come off at a seam or was that just where you were able to cut it?

For some reason I don't know how to ask what I'm asking here.....

 

I cut away the B pillar and part of the window frame & package tray as a matter of convenience. I won’t be doing that on the car I’m repairing. I only did it on the donor car so I could remove the panels cleanly and more easily. I’ll be cutting the damaged panels off of the wrecked car, so it won’t be an issue. 

Anyway, all the new panels will go back in as they were originally built and I’ll weld them in. There is a bit of room for misalignment though, so I’ll tack weld-weld everything in place and get the fit right, before anything is permanently welded. 

[SC Tiger]

14 minutes ago, janice6 said:

I phrased that paragraph that way, because the change in value of the occupants lives was not done willingly by the insurance companies.  This increased the cost of each minor accident by increasing the amount of property damage done, due to the required crush in the design to protect the occupants.  It's cheaper to pay for deaths of the occupants than for injuries.  Not nice to say, but a fact of the business.

I'm not saying that insurance companies intended that the occupants die, just that it is a statistical fact, and statistics on damages is how Insurance companies make money and stay in business.  It is a simple fact of their business.  When the vehicles began to be designed to minimize injuries to occupants, Lawyers began to fight for more money for those injuries due to the new emphasis placed on injuries instead of property damage.  

The change was brought about grudgingly by insurance companies because the government wrote regulations to require structural changes.  

Guy I went to college used to say that if you accidently ran someone over, put the car in reverse and finish the job.  Cheaper that way.

[SC Tiger]

On 12/28/2018 at 5:30 PM, tous said:

Best wishes, amigo.

I shall reserve any snarky remarks about uninsured motorists for later.

Just don't paint the repaired automobile orange.

And why the hell not?

[janice6]

Just now, Eric said:

I cut away the B pillar and part of the window frame & package tray as a matter of convenience. I won’t be doing that on the car I’m repairing. I only did it on the donor car so I could remove the panels cleanly. I’ll be cutting the damaged panels off of the wrecked car, so it won’t be an issue. 

Anyway, all the new panels will go back in as they were originally built and I’ll weld them in. There is a bit of room for misalignment though, so I’ll tack weld-weld everything in place and get the fit right, before anything is permanently welded. 

It's rather straight forward to measure the diagonals in each of the vehicles openings ( door frames, windows, trunk, etc.), and the longest underbody dimensions  to establish the "squareness" of the structure and it's individual components. 

It's done all the time in most body repair.  A good body man can hold these dimensions to a high degree of accuracy, unless you are more interested in the money than the liability.  Use of a tape measure makes sure the repair is done accurately.

[SC Tiger]

1 hour ago, janice6 said:

It's rather straight forward to measure the diagonals in each of the vehicles openings ( door frames, windows, trunk, etc.), and the longest underbody dimensions  to establish the "squareness" of the structure and it's individual components. 

It's done all the time in most body repair.  A good body man can hold these dimensions to a high degree of accuracy, unless you are more interested in the money than the liability.  Use of a tape measure makes sure the repair is done accurately.

Many of those openings are strange shapes though so I would think it could get tricky - especially for someone who doesn't do it every day.

Looking at the before pictures though, I don't think anything would be coming off that will affect the door squareness.  Would be more of an issue of getting the cut lines right, etc.  I would think.  The rear window is where I saw a concern but it depends on where the cuts are on the car being repaired.

I am far from an expert though.

Edited March 8, 2019 by SC Tiger

[janice6]

On ‎3‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 9:35 AM, SC Tiger said:

Friend of mine was in a sorta-similar situation.  He had one car damaged so he bought a donor car.

What he did was take the donor car apart and sell the components on Ebay.  Kept what he needed and sold the rest.  I assume there was still a carcass to haul off. 

He wound up making money in the deal.

It's generally accepted that a cars components are worth many times the vehicle value.  The problem is that you have to have the time and inclination to spend dealing with people that want something for nothing, and the time it sits around till it's all gone.  Chop Shops prove this out all the time.

Frequently, a used car that will not sell is worth more just selling it for parts, if you have the time and don't mind dealing with the public.  I hated dealing with the public.

 

[Eric]

50 minutes ago, janice6 said:

It's rather straight forward to measure the diagonals in each of the vehicles openings ( door frames, windows, trunk, etc.), and the longest underbody dimensions  to establish the "squareness" of the structure and it's individual components. 

It's done all the time in most body repair.  A good body man can hold these dimensions to a high degree of accuracy, unless you are more interested in the money than the liability.  Use of a tape measure makes sure the repair is done accurately.

Yep. I've got a couple of pages of measurements w/pics that I took before I began removing anything from the donor car. It would be crazy for me not to do a test fitting before I lock everything into place though. I don't have a frame machine or dead-flat table to work off of. I'll measure everything of course, but seeing all the shot lines and panel gaps line up tells me I got it right before I do something permanent.

[ASH]

On 3/7/2019 at 12:23 PM, janice6 said:

The advent of computers has led to the ability to calculate a phenomenal number of nodes (infinite element analysis, etc.) almost instantaneously, to determine the specific portions of the structure that increase injury.  Therefore the emphasis has changed from the Insurance company's desire to minimize property damage to decrease their costs, to increasing the occupant safety to improve survivability.  Government regulation caused this change.

We haven't see as much change in automobile design, as we have seen change in the value of occupant's lives.  Now automobiles are made to crush predictively and protect the occupants.  Formerly the automobile was as rigid a structure as possible, to minimize the vehicle damage and pass the impact to the occupants.

not surprised at  all , inert  speed collison   where new cars expand the ripples and the new cars absorb the impact and distribute  the force outward   as where old cars with chrome bumpers were made like a ball bearing  that did not give an inch ,  all the force is on you ,  kinda why you see new type vehicles flipping  dispering that energy and more people walk away  ,  but a old car flipping  is all on you  .    something  somewhere has got to give . 

[Eric]

Finally getting around to fixing the Maxima. I’m almost finished with demo. 

 

[Eric]

I just have to remove that crushed bit behind the inner wheelhouse. 

 

[Eric]

Man, those Japanese are precise. I just held the outer wheelhouse from the donor car up to the car I am fixing and the spot welds I drilled on the donor panel line up exactly with the new car.