Confederate Colors

[SC Tiger]

On 1/23/2019 at 1:28 PM, Dric902 said:

The argument could be made that the Confederacy was committing treason.

the argument could be made that the Confederacy was exercising its Constitutional Rights under the 10th Amendment.

Antonin Scalia said it well. The Civil War clearly showed that the States have no right to secede.

If in 2065 Alaska, California, Hawaii, or Texas (just to consider some examples) assert a right to secede, the argument that “in 1865, the victorious Union government concluded that no state has a right to secede in opposition to the wishes of the Union, so therefore you lack such a right” will have precisely the weight that the Americans of 2065 will choose to give it — which should be very little. 

You can say that it was “written by the victors” but it was written.

.

Scalia seems to be arguing that the 1865 ruling should be given little weight because it was written after the fact and by the victors. 

To break down what I THINK Scalia is saying:

The argument is that those states (Texas, CA, HI) cannot secede since the Confederacy couldn't (legally).

This ruling is based on a Union government ruling in 1865

The people of 2065 will decide what weight the 1865 ruling

Those people should put very little weight on the 1865 ruling.

 

Now - we all know that's not how it's going to happen.  But that does seem to be Scalia's opinion - and he was a sharp man.

 

I dunno.  Any time two groups split apart there's turmoil.

 

Edited January 30, 2019 by SC Tiger

[SarahMcGlocklan]

2 hours ago, Dog Soldier said:

The Cherokee Tribes married the French, English, Germans and Scotch Irish freely. John Ross a mixed race leader of the tribes was highly respected as was the family of Major Ridge. The migration of populations across the Globe was in a flux of constant change. No one group can prove they were first. Many can prove they were the first to introduce a civil society. 

Yeah, we all know it is impossible to tell who was here fist, the native Americans or the French. So mysterious. Maybe someday when technology has sufficiently advanced we will have concrete answers. 

[Jammersix]

Heritage doesn't make any difference to me. Treason is treason.

[SC Tiger]

Speaking of Confederate flags - there's this guy:

He owns an ice cream shop that is on a point between two major roads.  But he doesn't own the very "point" of the point.  A local SCV camp does - they were given that patch by Maurice Bessinger (you may remember this guy) who used to own the restaurant.  Now, the SCV is not inherently racist but this particular camp is a bit, shall we say, behind the times.  Or some members are.

Anyway the owner cannot seem to get anyone to understand that the flag is not his, and the land is not his.  I feel bad for him, really.

[windowasher]

On 1/22/2019 at 8:36 AM, Jammersix said:

I was asked why I oppose confederate colors, and the answer is simple.

It means that the person displaying it does not love this country, and, in fact, is in favor of breaking away from it, and even willing to commit treason to do so.

It's a symbol of treason against the U.S., and it's that simple.

The rest, the racism, the hatred, is all small stuff. It's so common it doesn't make it onto the list when treason is around.

So there you go, your answer. Displaying confederate colors is in the same league as stepping on or burning the national colors.

Considering the Democrat Party founded the Confederacy and carried on the violence until the 1960's, and some would say even today.  How could anyone ever vote for. or support a democrat? Wouldn't that be spitting on yhe Natioinal colors?

[Jammersix]

If you say so. But it isn't treason.

[Moshe]

On ‎1‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 11:20 PM, Jammersix said:

Heritage doesn't make any difference to me. Treason is treason.

So, when someone displays a flag from their cultural, ethnic, religious, country, branch of service, for favorite football team they have in your mind committed treason?

Edited January 30, 2019 by Moshe

[Jammersix]

Just now, Moshe said:

So, when someone displays a flag from their cultural, ethnic, religious, country, for favorite football team they have in your mind committed treason?

There is only one flag that represents treason against the United States.

[Moshe]

Just now, Jammersix said:

There is only one flag that represents treason against the United States.

Not so.  If you are a Citizen of the United States and put a big Iranian flag on your car, are you then not treasonous?

[Jammersix]

1 minute ago, Moshe said:

Not so.  If you are a Citizen of the United States and put a big Iranian flag on your car, are you then not treasonous?

No. You're just an idiot.

[Moshe]

Just now, Jammersix said:

No. You're just an idiot.

No, I am challenging your premise.  You are simply being abusive and not responding to the question?

While we are discussing this, in East Texas which Flag would inspire the most violence if I added to the Texas and American flags.

1.

 

2.

 

Your answer please?

[windowasher]

On 1/23/2019 at 8:57 AM, SC Tiger said:

And the NRA was one of the first organizations (the first I think) to lobby for African-Americans to own firearms to defend themselves.

I have Confederate ancestors.  I'm very proud of them and how they fought.  But I also realize that the cause they fought for was flawed.  Slavery wasn't the whole issue, but it was part of it and it was the flawed part.

You can do both.  This entire nation has flawed parts in it's past.  Ask these guys:

 

America is the greatest nation on the face of the earth, and the greatest that there has ever been.  But perfect - it ain't.  

It should also be noted that slavery existed after the Civil war in states that did not secede.  It took a second act to eliminate it, after the fact.

Oh yeah, can't ever forget how that great democrat, Andy Jackson, treated those native american...especially the Seminole Nation

[Jammersix]

Challenge away. The confederate flag stands for treason.

[Moshe]

6 minutes ago, Jammersix said:

Challenge away. The confederate flag stands for treason.

Interesting.  Because it was an American Flag, made by Americans:

This flag was also considered to be treasonous by the royalists:

Should that mean, that our current flag is treasonous?  Should it look like this instead?

[Jammersix]

You're boring me. Do better. The confederate flag stands for treason, against the U.S.

[Citra47]

On ‎1‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 10:59 AM, SC Tiger said:

A lot of the treason bit comes down to the idea of Federal Nullification - the concept that a state can override Federal law within it's borders.  

This is the same concept that is often used to defend sanctuary cities refusing to enforce Federal immigration laws.

BINGO!  The very same thing as states passing laws attempting to negate the Electoral College within their borders. 

Edited January 30, 2019 by Citra47

[Citra47]

58 minutes ago, Jammersix said:

You're boring me. Do better. The confederate flag stands for treason, against the U.S.

You REALLY need to study history more and listen to the alphabet news less. The only time the Confederate flag was considered treasonous - even by the Federal Government - was during the actual war between the North and South. You will notice if you bother to study some Civil War history that the Federal Government (the winning side) did not make any attempt to destroy the flags of the South, and there were actually several different flags used.  After the war was over and the armistice signed, the flags of the Southern States became a part of history - some being incorporated into various State Flags. And that's all they are - history.

For the life of me, I can not understand why some people decide they need to destroy historical landmarks or items because they may not like them.  How would you feel if, for instance, a group of people destroyed a historical landmark that meant a great deal to your family?  It's not really dissimilar to someone destroying a family grave or mausoleum. Sheer stupidity. 

[Jammersix]

The confederate flag stands for treason at a minimum, or treason and racism.

Using it in a display in a museum about history is a completely different thing from flying it.

[Jammersix]

53 minutes ago, Citra47 said:

For the life of me, I can not understand why some people decide they need to destroy historical landmarks or items because they may not like them.  How would you feel if, for instance, a group of people destroyed a historical landmark that meant a great deal to your family?  It's not really dissimilar to someone destroying a family grave or mausoleum. Sheer stupidity. 

Tell it to the Germans. You can't even possess a flag with a swastika on it there. And somehow, the history remains, in all its infamy.

Like slavery, treason and the confederacy. You don't need to worry about losing the history-- chains leave marks that take tens of generations to heal, and no American will ever forget the time a treasonous army was raised and had to be crushed.

Treason is treason. It's a felony.

Maintaining monuments to felons is sheer stupidity. 

The difference between a felon and a revolutionary, between treason and revolution is victory. If you're going to resort to committing treason, win.

We don't honor monuments to felons.

Edited January 31, 2019 by Jammersix

[Citra47]

40 minutes ago, Jammersix said:

Tell it to the Germans. You can't even possess a flag with a swastika on it there. And somehow, the history remains, in all its infamy.

Like slavery, treason and the confederacy. You don't need to worry about losing the history-- chains leave marks that take tens of generations to heal, and no American will ever forget the time a treasonous army was raised and had to be crushed.

Treason is treason. It's a felony.

Maintaining monuments to felons is sheer stupidity. 

The difference between a felon and a revolutionary, between treason and revolution is victory. If you're going to resort to committing treason, win.

We don't honor monuments to felons.

So, you are obviously full of hatred and prejudice.  You hate the Confederacy because they lost the war which makes them treasonous?  And, what is it with the Germans?  If the United States Government did not treat the southern soldiers as treasonous felons, why do you take it upon yourself to call them felons and treasonous?  You must actually believe you are God. You not only want to destroy history but change it in addition to severely judging people both of your past and present.  Put your mindset back in 1850 thru the Civil War. Those people were not full of the hate and prejudice you display in 2019, and they fought a war. When it was over, they worked their mental problems out and got back to living. 

[Jammersix]

That was pretty funny.

And it didn't change anything.

[Dric902]

The flag wasn’t treason, flying a flag isn’t treason

the secession was treason. The establishment of another government within the United States was treason.

 

the flag was just a flag

 

.

[Jammersix]

2 hours ago, Dric902 said:

The flag wasn’t treason, flying a flag isn’t treason

the secession was treason. The establishment of another government within the United States was treason.

 

the flag was just a flag.

I never said flying the flag was treason. I said flying it indicated the person flying it doesn't love the country, among other things. It's not the piece of cloth-- the cloth doesn't matter any more than our colors matter. Burn either one, use them for demonstrations, whatever.

But what you do with either flag tells me a lot about the person and what they believe. Whether they're a patriot, a patriotic demonstrator, or whether they're in favor of breaking away from the U.S., even if they have to commit treason to do so.

I said if you see someone flying confederate colors, you're looking at someone who doesn't care for the United States. Usually, in 2019, that means they hate the U.S., but can't do anything about it, through lack of will or means.

[Moshe]

6 hours ago, Jammersix said:

I never said flying the flag was treason. I said flying it indicated the person flying it doesn't love the country, among other things. It's not the piece of cloth-- the cloth doesn't matter any more than our colors matter. Burn either one, use them for demonstrations, whatever.

But what you do with either flag tells me a lot about the person and what they believe. Whether they're a patriot, a patriotic demonstrator, or whether they're in favor of breaking away from the U.S., even if they have to commit treason to do so.

I said if you see someone flying confederate colors, you're looking at someone who doesn't care for the United States. Usually, in 2019, that means they hate the U.S., but can't do anything about it, through lack of will or means.

If that is your premise, then flying any other flag in the United States other than the "the person flying it doesn't love the country among other things."  That is the logical conclusion of your thesis.  But, I am debating logic, you seem to be using emotion to guide your though process.  Would I fly a confederate flag?  No, I would not.  But, there are other flags I could raise around here that would probably get a cross burned in my yard faster than the Stars and Bars.  Context, and location is pretty much everything.

Here is something perplexing for you to mentally digest:

 

[Dric902]

7 hours ago, Jammersix said:

I never said flying the flag was treason. I said flying it indicated the person flying it doesn't love the country, among other things. It's not the piece of cloth-- the cloth doesn't matter any more than our colors matter. Burn either one, use them for demonstrations, whatever.

But what you do with either flag tells me a lot about the person and what they believe. Whether they're a patriot, a patriotic demonstrator, or whether they're in favor of breaking away from the U.S., even if they have to commit treason to do so.

I said if you see someone flying confederate colors, you're looking at someone who doesn't care for the United States. Usually, in 2019, that means they hate the U.S., but can't do anything about it, through lack of will or means.

Wasn’t talking to you specifically