My new toy

[Wyzz Kydd]

2 minutes ago, M&P15T said:

The current Camaro? By very loose, do you mean too much structural rigidity loss with the convertible?

I drove a convertible Mustang, you could tell it had lost structural rigidity. I would look at a convertible Mustang more a a relaxed cruiser, not a Sports Coupe.

Yeah, they have a rep for not being rigid enough.  If not for that, and if they came with a power hard top, I might have bought a convertible.

[M&P15T]

14 minutes ago, Wyzz Kydd said:

Yeah, they have a rep for not being rigid enough.  If not for that, and if they came with a power hard top, I might have bought a convertible.

Yeah, that's kinda part of the deal. If I were to buy a Mustang convertible, it would be the 4 cylinder turbo/auto, without the sport-suspension.

Just a cruiser.

[Borg warner]

35 minutes ago, Wyzz Kydd said:

Hannie's pic links to GT.  I'm banned from that forum, so unfortunately I can't see the picture of her car.  Since she's a Georgia fan (Roll Tide)  I'm going to assume it's red like mine.  I like the look of the 2010 Camaro's but they run on a bigger heavier chassis.  Part of the appeal of the 6th generation Camaro's is that they're on a smaller lighter chassis that performs much better than the older one did.  That's one of the reasons they're beating BMWs, Porsches, Ferraris and Lamborghinis on the track.

Can you see this pic? I copied it and posted it here. I don't see how it's linked to GT. I like the looks of the front end of the 2010 better but I never knew that the 6th generation had a smaller lighter chassis. Her's is red, too, but has wide black racing stripes.

[Wyzz Kydd]

7 minutes ago, Borg warner said:

Can you see this pic? I copied it and posted it here. I don't see how it's linked to GT. I like the looks of the front end of the 2010 better but I never knew that the 6th generation had a smaller lighter chassis. Her's is red, too, but has wide black racing stripes.

Yeah I can see that one.  Thanks!  Hannie's pic showed up as an icon and when I clicked on the icon it took me to GT.

It's a pretty car.  I like the look of mine better, but different strokes and all that. The sixth gen Camaro uses what they call the Alpha platform which it shares with some Cadillac models.  Lighter, smaller and more rigid.  It uses the same engine as the Corvette, and the 1LE option (which is what I have) shares many of the ZL1 suspension options, like Magnetic Ride Control and also the same electronic limited slip differential as the Corvette.  It's a very different Camaro from the 5th gen.

[Wyzz Kydd]

 Here’s a shot of mine from a similar angle 

[Borg warner]

1 minute ago, Wyzz Kydd said:

Yeah I can see that one.  Thanks!  Hannie's pic showed up as an icon and when I clicked on the icon it took me to GT.

It's a pretty car.  I like the look of mine better, but different strokes and all that. The sixth gen Camaro uses what they call the Alpha platform which it shares with some Cadillac models.  Lighter, smaller and more rigid.  It uses the same engine as the Corvette, and the 1LE option (which is what I have) shares many of the ZL1 suspension options, like Magnetic Ride Control and also the same electronic limited slip differential as the Corvette.  It's a very different Camaro from the 5th gen.

So maybe Hannie still doesn't really know how to post pictures even though it's a lot easier to do here than it is on Glock talk.

[OldSchool64]

On 8/20/2018 at 7:37 AM, crockett said:

 

Based on my experiences with building race engines for Superbike Unlimited (and at Benz in R&D back in the 90s), the break-in process depends on the load foremost, and varies between 50 miles and well over 300 miles. A 6.2 NA Corvette engine broken-in by the book (owners manual) will take a very long time to break in, and will not break in properly at all.

The right thing to do, would be a 3x3 set varying RPM all the way to the limiter, 30 / 60 / WOT run on a dyno with proper cooling. That will do 90% of the break-in right there, followed by the first oil change.

A Corvette or SS with some 15 miles from test rides and delivery is not broken in, unless somebody went totally nuts right away.

I agree and fully understand; An engine must be operated throughout the useful RPM band during the break-in procedure (first few hundred miles) and NOT FREE-FLOATED. It's a must for proper break-in of the cam(s) and bearings, and I believe it's necessary for proper compression ring seating. The post you quoted was just my thoughts that related to failure of the oil rings to properly seat.

Edited August 23, 2018 by *OldSchool*

[crockett]

10 hours ago, Wyzz Kydd said:

I appreciate the warning.  Could you please explain to me why the people who designed and manufactured the car are wrong and you're right?

 

Below was my Corvette. Same engine as yours. The people you can see underneath are 2 GM lawyers, one of their camera guys, a tech and their field manager, being busy trying to confirm (or deny) that my beloved Vette was eating through 2 quarts of oil every 1,000 miles, because I broke this car in by the book (against my knowledge). I also somehow wanted to stay on the ""safe"" side if something would have happened and if I'd needed the warranty. Well, then I needed it because of this major oil burning issue. 8 dealerships later and I still had no solution at hand. It took me basically one year to force GM to buy it back. Next guy I know with the exact same problem lives only 5 miles from me, same engine, same slow and below 4k break-in.

They can't suggest a hard break-in method in the manual out of liability reasons. Too many would floor it on public roads and end up in crashes, easily being in a position to sue the manufacturer.

 

Edited August 23, 2018 by crockett

[Wyzz Kydd]

34 minutes ago, crockett said:

 

Below was my Corvette. Same engine as yours. The people you can see underneath are 2 GM lawyers, one of their camera guys, a tech and their field manager, being busy trying to confirm (or deny) that my beloved Vette was eating through 2 quarts of oil every 1,000 miles, because I broke this car in by the book (against my knowledge). I also somehow wanted to stay on the ""safe"" side if something would have happened and if I'd needed the warranty. Well, then I needed it because of this major oil burning issue. 8 dealerships later and I still had no solution at hand. It took me basically one year to force GM to buy it back. Next guy I know with the exact same problem lives only 5 miles from me, same engine, same slow and below 4k break-in.

They can't suggest a hard break-in method in the manual out of liability reasons. Too many would floor it on public roads and end up in crashes, easily being in a position to sue the manufacturer.

 

Well I guess Chevy created the ultimate lemon then. Follow their recommended break in and you’re doomed to burn oil forever, and they end up buying it back, ‘bang on it’ and your eLSD is toast and you void your warranty. I sure wish some of the thousands of 1LE owners on the Camaro6 forum would have mentioned this. 

It never occurred to me that the fear of liability from recommending running it hard would lead them to recommend the exact wrong way to break it in. Couldn’t they have just remained silent on the issue?  

Sorry, I don’t buy it. I took it easy on my 2016 SS during break in and never had an issue burning oil.

[Boogieman]

On 8/19/2018 at 9:30 PM, willie-pete said:

Had an IROC Z back in the day.

Fun car,

Enjoy yours.

Did you also have a mullet and a Members Only jacket?

[crockett]

38 minutes ago, Wyzz Kydd said:

Well I guess Chevy created the ultimate lemon then. Follow their recommended break in and you’re doomed to burn oil forever, and they end up buying it back, ‘bang on it’ and your eLSD is toast and you void your warranty. I sure wish some of the thousands of 1LE owners on the Camaro6 forum would have mentioned this. 

It never occurred to me that the fear of liability from recommending running it hard would lead them to recommend the exact wrong way to break it in. Couldn’t they have just remained silent on the issue?  

Sorry, I don’t buy it. I took it easy on my 2016 SS during break in and never had an issue burning oil.

 

Maybe (and hopefully) they have improved the situation by now. Mine was an early 2016. Regarding the oil burning issue being known or not, read yourself:

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c7-tech-performance/3885770-new-c7-oil-consumption.html

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c7-z06-discussion/3851289-burning-oil.html

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c7-z06-discussion/3840945-oil-consumption-1-600-miles-quart-normal-or-a-problem-chevy-response-inside.html

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c7-general-discussion/3665464-oil-burn.html

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c7-general-discussion/4115796-c7-oil-consumption.html

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c7-z06-discussion/3887110-normal-oil-consumption.html

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c7-general-discussion/3800025-oil-consumption.html

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c7-tech-performance/3894564-can-someone-chime-in-on-oil-consumption.html

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c7-general-discussion/3647757-lemon-law-excessive-oil-consumption-help.html

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c7-z06-discussion/3805872-new-zo6-using-oil.html

 

Camaro Forum with SS / ZL1 oil consumption issues:

https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=486591

https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=508608

https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=468413

https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=463039

https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=496203

https://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=200875

 

There is more. There are "plenty" of people who claim no oil consumption. The general census is also that it depends on your driving pattern. On the track (road course, not strip) , many C7 / Z06 owners overfill because they know that the engine will have burned through 1 quart at the end of the day. Many C7 owners baby their car and do oil changes every 2,000 miles, hence see little oil being burned.

When you read through all those threads (there are many more) you will find out that the oil burning issues is widely acknowledged. Many live with the problem, knowing that GM is very rarely accepting warranty claims, justified by their own guideline that 1 quart every 2,000 miles is "normal". Which it is not with today's technology. Mine burned 2 quarts every 1,000 miles, which is 4 times over GM's self imposed and way too high limit. And even then they played stupid and long-drawn games with me.

 

 

 

Edited August 24, 2018 by crockett

[Boogieman]

On 8/20/2018 at 6:37 AM, crockett said:

The right thing to do, would be a 3x3 set varying RPM all the way to the limiter, 30 / 60 / WOT run on a dyno with proper cooling. That will do 90% of the break-in right there, followed by the first oil change.

That's pretty much what Acura does with every NSX before it leaves the factory.

[crockett]

12 minutes ago, Boogieman said:

That's pretty much what Acura does with every NSX before it leaves the factory.

 

It's being done with many performance engines / cars right in the factory. Check out this BMW Engine Assembling video. See that glowing turbo and header at 12:57? Hard break-in all the way to the rev limiter within a minute after warm up before the engine even gets to see the car.

 

 

 

Edited August 24, 2018 by crockett

[OldSchool64]

3 minutes ago, crockett said:

 

It's being done with many performance engines / cars right in the factory. Check out this BMW Engine Assembling video. See that glowing turbo and header at 12:57? Hard break-in all the way to the ref limiter within a minute after warm up before the engine even gets to see the car.

 

 

 

Yes, after proper warm up. That's why I said first start up is most critical and it's out of the hands of the first owner.

[Wyzz Kydd]

14 minutes ago, crockett said:

 

Maybe (and hopefully) they have improved the situation by now. Mine was an early 2016. Regarding the oil burning issue being known or not, read yourself:

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c7-tech-performance/3885770-new-c7-oil-consumption.html

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c7-z06-discussion/3851289-burning-oil.html

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c7-z06-discussion/3840945-oil-consumption-1-600-miles-quart-normal-or-a-problem-chevy-response-inside.html

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c7-general-discussion/3665464-oil-burn.html

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c7-general-discussion/4115796-c7-oil-consumption.html

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c7-z06-discussion/3887110-normal-oil-consumption.html

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c7-general-discussion/3800025-oil-consumption.html

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c7-tech-performance/3894564-can-someone-chime-in-on-oil-consumption.html

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c7-general-discussion/3647757-lemon-law-excessive-oil-consumption-help.html

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c7-z06-discussion/3805872-new-zo6-using-oil.html

 

Camaro Forum with SS / ZL1 oil consumption issues:

https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=486591

https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=508608

https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=468413

https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=463039

https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=496203

https://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=200875

 

There is more. There are "plenty" of people who claim no oil consumption. The general census is also that it depends on your driving pattern. On the track (road course, not strip) , many C7 / Z06 owners overfill because they know that the engine will have burned through 1 quart at the end of the day. Many C7 owners baby their car and do oil changes every 2,000 miles, hence see little oil being burned.

When you read through all those threads (there are many more) you will find out that the oil burning issues is widely acknowledged. Many live with the problem, knowing that GM is very rarely accepting warranty claims, justified by their own guideline that 1 quart every 2,000 miles is "normal". Which it is not with today's technology. Mine burned 2 quarts every 1,000 miles, which is 4 times over GM's self imposed and way too high limit. And even then they played stupid and long-drawn games with me.

 

 

 

First let me say thank you for the links.

Although I don’t agree with your recommendations I appreciate you taking the time to provide the links and I always enjoy reading about my car.  

I read every Camaro link you posted and they were very similar. Most reported about 1-1.25 quarts burned between changes (with one extreme deviation) and they asked for feedback. The vast majority of responses reported minimal to no oil burning issues.

Some credited following the manufacturers break in protocol for not burning oil and a minority credited flogging it during the break in. A few who were burning oil acknowledged using the wrong oil, who knows why.

I feel comfortable with having taken it easy, relatively, for the first 500 miles and also with hot dogging it a bit for the last 100 miles. 

I plan to try launch mode tomorrow and see how that works out. 

Interesting tidbit, in the performance screens is a view that lets you watch how much slip the rear wheels are experiencing and how the eLSD is dealing with it. Pretty cool.

[crockett]

14 minutes ago, *OldSchool* said:

.. first start up is most critical and it's out of the hands of the first owner.

That is not correct. Most engines incl the 6.2 we are talking about is not being broken in at factory. And no, the break in does not happen at slow speeds.

Good break-in happens under load AND throughout the entire rev band, not at idle and not at low RPM, and not with partial load. And when people drive the 6.2l for 500 miles at low RPM, the cylinder walls will build up an enamel because the rings in the piston only build the required pressure against the cylinder wall full under load. With the enamel in place, the rings can't fully expand and can't make full contact, causing oil to be pressed by under load and when removing the load (hard downshifts with or without rev-match, causing it to be burned.

But what do I know. I must have dreamed my time at Benz in R&D as well as my MEng.

 

 

 

[OldSchool64]

1 minute ago, crockett said:

That is not correct. Most engines incl the 6.2 we are talking about is not being broken in at factory. And no, the break in does not happen at slow speeds.

Good break-in happens under load AND throughout the entire rev band, not at idle and not at low RPM, and not with partial load. And when people drive the 6.2l for 500 miles at low RPM, the cylinder walls will build up an enamel because the rings in the piston only build the required pressure against the cylinder wall full under load. With the enamel in place, the rings can't fully expand and can't make full contact, causing oil to be pressed by under load and when removing the load (hard downshifts with or without rev-match, causing it to be burned.

But what do I know. I must have dreamed my time at Benz in R&D as well as my MEng.

 

 

 

Hope I can feel free to say - your reading comprehension sucks.

/conversation

[Wyzz Kydd]

No need to get personal, this is supposed to be a fun thread about my new toy.  Differences of opinion are fine, part of life, but if you want to get down and dirty you can always buy your own toy and post about it.

If it ends up burning excessive amounts of oil I’ll post about it.

[crockett]

18 minutes ago, Wyzz Kydd said:

First let me say thank you for the links.

Although I don’t agree with your recommendations I appreciate you taking the time to provide the links and I always enjoy reading about my car.  

I read every Camaro link you posted and they were very similar. Most reported about 1-1.25 quarts burned between changes (with one extreme deviation) and they asked for feedback. The vast majority of responses reported minimal to no oil burning issues.

Some credited following the manufacturers break in protocol for not burning oil and a minority credited flogging it during the break in. A few who were burning oil acknowledged using the wrong oil, who knows why.

I feel comfortable with having taken it easy, relatively, for the first 500 miles and also with hot dogging it a bit for the last 100 miles. 

I plan to try launch mode tomorrow and see how that works out. 

Interesting tidbit, in the performance screens is a view that lets you watch how much slip the rear wheels are experiencing and how the eLSD is dealing with it. Pretty cool.

 

There are indeed people not having issues with the 6.2, for whatever reason. Chances are that you will not have any major issues. There are also plenty of peoples adding half a quart every xxxx miles and taking it easy. You got yourself a great and fun car nonetheless.

I take this oil burning matter bitterly because of my own experience with GM, ranging from several dealers, customer service and executive office. Only when I filed a lawsuit they finally took care of it. I wasn't willing to add almost half a quart with every gas refill. Granted, my case was excessive.

I hate that GM tried to leave me stranded with this. If I wouldn't have had this issue, I'd be long looking at a pro-charged 1,000+ HP Corvette.

So take my posts with a grain of salt, and let us know if you experience any oil consumption down the road.

Edited August 24, 2018 by crockett

[OldSchool64]

3 minutes ago, Wyzz Kydd said:

No need to get personal, this is supposed to be a fun thread about my new toy.  Differences of opinion are fine, part of life, but if you want to get down and dirty you can always buy your own toy and post about it.

If it ends up burning excessive amounts of oil I’ll post about it.

You're right. Sorry 'bout that. Just hate it when I'm misunderstood. I was agreeing with him, but still adding my own two cents about oil ring failure. He didn't seem to get that.

[OldSchool64]

2 hours ago, *OldSchool* said:

I agree and fully understand; An engine must be operated throughout the useful RPM band during the break-in procedure (first few hundred miles) and NOT FREE-FLOATED. It's a must for proper break-in of the cam(s) and bearings, and I believe it's necessary for proper compression ring seating. The post you quoted was just my thoughts that related to failure of the oil rings to properly seat.

Maybe he didn't read that post?

[crockett]

11 minutes ago, *OldSchool* said:

You're right. Sorry 'bout that. Just hate it when I'm misunderstood. I was agreeing with him, but still adding my own two cents about oil ring failure. He didn't seem to get that.

 

Did you write this or not?

40 minutes ago, *OldSchool* said:

That's why I said first start up is most critical and it's out of the hands of the first owner.

That claim is simply false, as I have posted. The break-in with most engines is at hand of the first owner, because they are NOT broken-in at the factory. BMW and a few others started doing the break in at factory in recent years. It proves that hard break-ins are better for modern engines, and that it is being done by some well known manufacturers. That was my point posting my video, nothing else.

Unless somebody was beating the **** out of a new car at test rides, and that rarely happens because the car sales man will have a word with you, they are not broken in when you buy a new car, nor is it out of the hands from new owners.

 

Edited August 24, 2018 by crockett

[OldSchool64]

For the uninitiated: If a new engine burns oil, it's likely because of oil ring failure.

That has nothing to do with the over-all break in failure or success.

My theory about oil burning issues relates to the first warm up and the oil rings overheating.

That has nothing to do with the rest (after first start up and proper warm up) of the break in.

Edited August 24, 2018 by *OldSchool*

[Wyzz Kydd]

I think old school is agreeing with you that they need to be run hard from the start, particularly the first crank and that that’s out of the hand of the owner because first start ups are occurring at the dealer and aren’t hard runs.

 

I think...

Edited August 24, 2018 by Wyzz Kydd

[Hannie Caulder]

8 hours ago, Borg warner said:

Hannie can post pictures!!!!! Yay! Nice car by the way. I think it's actually better looking than the newer ones.

Thank you!  Notice the Georgia Bulldog colors LOL.  I ordered it that way.

The first time Daddy saw it he said "That thing is a ticket waiting to happen."  LOL.  Still haven't gotten a ticket yet, but I have been pulled over a few times.  It's real easy to speed in that car if you're not paying attention.