Can You Overrun Your Pistol?

[Moshe]

I decided to take out my FNX-45 Tactical and shoot as fast as I possibly could.  The .45ACP was brand new.  All fifteen went off in a split second, 16 didn't.  I examined the round, and it wasn't a bad strike, the striker was still in great shape.  I can dump a magazine in a blink of an eye when I want to.  The weapon being semi-auto, I wonder if I over ran the action?  My fire rate wasn't the same cadence of a full auto, but damn close.

[fastbolt]

By saying " over ran the action", do you mean that because you were trying to manipulate the trigger so quickly that you short-stroked the trigger recovery, or tried to press it before it had recovered sufficiently and could mechanically function to fire the next shot? Or, that a problem exists with your particular pistol and something needs to be corrected by the gun company?

It's not exactly a rare thing for a shooter to try to rush their "timing" of manipulating the trigger in some effort to rapidly fire a shot string beyond their ability to exert precise control over each particular trigger press, or to try to catch and hold the recovering trigger at some point of mechanical reset (instead of allowing it to recover), and experience a functioning problem. (This is easier to mistakenly do with a DA revolver, when the shooter doesn't remember that a revovler's DA/DAO trigger function requires a full trigger recovery before the revolver's action is mechanically ready for another shot.)

Another mistake that some shooters can induce in their trigger manipulation is when a shooter tries to "hold" a trigger back at the "reset point", while they're still experiencing the effect of recoil, and their reaction to the recoil causes them to unintentionally press the trigger too far - usually called "rocking the trigger under recoil" - and they experience an unexpected round being fired.

On a related note ...

Many years ago, when I had just bought my first 642-1 and had allowed the previous revolver armorer to try some reduced power rebound slide springs in it, I soon discovered a problem.

While the lightest pair of the reduced power springs wouldn't allow the trigger to consistently recover, even during dry-fire, the heaviest of the aftermarket springs would, so it was used in the gun for a while. It wasn't long, however, before I discovered that my trigger finger could "out run" the speed of the trigger's recovery during rapid shot strings, meaning the trigger hadn't recovered for the next shot before my finger was ready to try and press it. That's not good. The lighter power spring just wasn't able to make the trigger recover as quickly as the factory spring. I put the factory spring back in the gun and the trigger recovery was again brisk and faster than my finger, even during rapid practice and training drills.

Edited February 27, 2019 by fastbolt

[Borg warner]

On 2/27/2019 at 9:54 AM, fastbolt said:

On a related note ...

Many years ago, when I had just bought my first 642-1 and had allowed the previous revolver armorer to try some reduced power rebound slide springs in it, I soon discovered a problem.

While the lightest pair of the reduced power springs wouldn't allow the trigger to consistently recover, even during dry-fire, the heaviest of the aftermarket springs would, so it was used in the gun for a while. It wasn't long, however, before I discovered that my trigger finger could "out run" the speed of the trigger's recovery during rapid shot strings, meaning the trigger hadn't recovered for the next shot before my finger was ready to try and press it. That's not good. The lighter power spring just wasn't able to make the trigger recover as quickly as the factory spring. I put the factory spring back in the gun and the trigger recovery was again brisk and faster than my finger, even during rapid practice and training drills.

A lighter trigger isn't necessarily a better trigger and that goes for striker fired guns as well.  I don't know bout 1911's though, I never tried shooting a 1911 as fast as I could pul the trigger. I've always concentrated more on controlled double taps rather than seeing how fast I could empty the gun.

I think for practical defensive purposes there is too much emphasis on speed for the sake of speed as if he who shoots the fastest shoots the best. 

A shooting instructor I once had,who taught for many years at Gunsite with Jeff Cooper used to like to say, "you need to take your time to hit what you're aiming at,  but you need to take your time as fast as you can."

 

Edited October 29, 2020 by Borg warner

[minervadoe]

4 minutes ago, Borg warner said:

I think for practical defensive purposes there is too much emphasis on speed for the sake of speed as if he who shoots the fastest shoots the best.

People train like they are going to get into a western quick draw shootout.  It seems like an unlikely scenario when lateral movement and proper use of cover are important survival skills that are often ignored. 

[fastbolt]

14 minutes ago, Borg warner said:

A lighter trigger isn't necessarily a better trigger and tat goes for striker fired guns as well.  I don't know bout 1911's though, I never tried shooting a 1911 as fast as I could pul the trigger. I've always concentrated more on controlled double taps rather than seeing how fast I could empty the gun.

I think for practical defensive purposes there is too much emphasis on speed for the sake of speed as if he who shoots th fastest shoots the best. 

A shooting instructor I once had,who taught for many years at Gunsite with Jeff Cooper used to like to say, "you need to take your time to hit what you're aiming at, but you need to take your time as fast as you can."

 

Yeah, that was before I'd become a revolver armorer, myself, and learned the importance of brisk and consistently firm trigger recovery, and how it depended on the rebound slide spring. I wasn't looking for a lighter DA trigger, and actually prefer the full-power DA/DAO S&W revolver triggers. Besides, a lighter rebound slide spring may not function the slide and trigger's recovery as well as the standard spring if any contamination or heavy fouling were to occur out off the competition range. ;)

We used to introduce some extended rapid shot strings in training, but that was primarily as an assessment aid to observe whether a particular shooter was controllably driving the gun under repeated recoil, or whether the gun's recoil was driving the shooter, beyond his/her ability to maintain deliberate control and deteriorating their control and recoil management.

We always pointed out to shooters who seemingly tried to just "fire off bullets just as fast as they could function their trigger" that at some point each round fired was going to be subject to the test of being reasonable, lawful and appropriate - (and for our folks, also within policy) -  and they didn't want to fall into the "spray 'n pray" trap and find themselves firing more rounds before they could think and could later explain and justify.

Lots of folks still fail to grasp that fast misses aren't to their benefit.

[Moshe]

FNX Tactical .45  I can shoot really fast.  But, I wasn't shooting a human.  If I put 15 or 5 in a human, the end result of dealing with the consequences would be the same.  It is why I carry USCCA full service each year for both my wife and myself.  I just like to test a new weapon to see if it can be over ran.  It turns out you can.  I have done it once on a striker fired, and in this case hammer fired.  It is a more, can I go fast enough to throw it out of battery, or get it to fail/jam whatever.  In this case 15 out of 16 rounds of 230 grain, silver tip hollow points.  What it tells me, yes, you can dump them accurately.  Should it be done in self defense situation, clearly not.  I prefer to call my shots.  Preferably I like center mass upper right for me, upper left for the aggressor to stop the threat faster.  If there is body armor, well, then two to the chest one to the head.  At close range we were taught to draw and fire three rounds in three seconds, bent elbow.  So, I am used to time constraints, but I have never dumped rounds on a qualification course. 

The question for me, could I do it.  Yes, I could.  It reminds me, why I prefer semi-auto over full any day.  Full auto can give you a bad day, and it was designed for suppressive fire, or you are screwed anyway, take as many as you can with you.

[Belt Fed]

On 2/12/2019 at 8:15 AM, Moshe said:

I decided to take out my FNX-45 Tactical and shoot as fast as I possibly could.  The .45ACP was brand new.  All fifteen went off in a split second, 16 didn't.  I examined the round, and it wasn't a bad strike, the striker was still in great shape.  I can dump a magazine in a blink of an eye when I want to.  The weapon being semi-auto, I wonder if I over ran the action?  My fire rate wasn't the same cadence of a full auto, but damn close.  

Depends on which full auto, they have different rates of fire.

[Belt Fed]

Also, 15 rounds a second is 900 a minute..not happening with a 45 semi auto handgun.

[Moshe]

I can make a mag disappear in a blink of an eye.  FN does good work.

[Belt Fed]

How many rounds a minute you think you can fire in it if you didn't have to swap mags? a blink of an eye is lot faster than a second. so you're mini gun fast?

[fastbolt]

Damn, the "blink of an eye" is Miculek fast.

I used to practice to be able to consistently produce .12sec splits, shooting 1-handed, but in order to consistently get off an accurate string of more than 3 or 4 rounds at that cadence (before index finger press and allowing for trigger recovery "timing" might become an issue) I had to use 9mm instead of .45 or .40 most of the time.

Most days I was satisfied if I could fire 4 accurate rounds per second, shooting 1-handed, and keeping the hits clustered within a fist-sized group while moving offline/diagonally from a threat target at 4-5yds. Of course, while I like to consider myself decently trained, skilled and experienced for a LE firearms instructor, I'm nowhere nearly fast enough to run with most competition/gaming shooters.

Miculek fast is so fast it has to be seen to be appreciated, and even then it's usually hard to believe you've seen it.

[jk_226]

2 hours ago, fastbolt said:

Damn, the "blink of an eye" is Miculek fast.

I used to practice to be able to consistently produce .12sec splits, shooting 1-handed, but in order to consistently get off an accurate string of more than 3 or 4 rounds at that cadence (before index finger press and allowing for trigger recovery "timing" might become an issue) I had to use 9mm instead of .45 or .40 most of the time.

Most days I was satisfied if I could fire 4 accurate rounds per second, shooting 1-handed, and keeping the hits clustered within a fist-sized group while moving offline/diagonally from a threat target at 4-5yds. Of course, while I like to consider myself decently trained, skilled and experienced for a LE firearms instructor, I'm nowhere nearly fast enough to run with most competition/gaming shooters.

Miculek fast is so fast it has to be seen to be appreciated, and even then it's usually hard to believe you've seen it.

Only seen the videos, but damn is he fast.  He makes it look easy too.

Edited March 2, 2019 by jk_226

[Borg warner]

5 hours ago, fastbolt said:

Damn, the "blink of an eye" is Miculek fast.

Miculek fast is so fast it has to be seen to be appreciated, and even then it's usually hard to believe you've seen it.

I've never seen  Jerry Miculek  but I have seen Bob Munden and he was so fast you don't even have time to blink

[fastbolt]

The combination of the perfect bundles of the right bunches of muscle fibers, the right hand/eye coordination, the right breathing and a steely nerve needed for such artistry, the likes of which Bob Munden, Jerry Miculek and other shooting artists (because they ARE artists) have demonstrated, doesn't come around every day.

The rest of us muddle along.

I remember when the former head instructor used to work with some of us instructors, trying to refine our pump shotgun techniques. I was at a disadvantage because I was the non-hunter of the bunch, so I had to work harder at running the pump guns because I only fired a shotgun for work. Anyway, the point of the drills he used to have us run involved putting accurate shot groupings within the smallest scoring zone of the standard silhouettes, from a relatively close 5-7yds, but while learning to actuate the pump stroke while riding the recoil back & forward, so the shotgun was chambered and ready to fire as we recovered from the rearward recoil impulse. (This is opposite of pushing forward against the forend during recoil.) Then, to work on repeating the timing of everything so we could fire rapid shot strings on buck and slugs. We went through some cases of buck over time.

When I was working with the 870 all the time, I finally reached the point where I was able to empty 6 rounds of buck, getting accurate hits (albeit at a close range of 5-7yds), in a flat 1.5 seconds. The hardest part was keeping the rhythm and timing going for the last 3 rounds of buck (or slugs). The first 3 rounds was easier in the respect after those first 3 rounds the recoil could eventually begin to degrade the overall "timing" of making everything run "just right".

Obviously, that wouldn't qualify me to run with the real shotgun artists and exhibitions shooters, but I was only looking to be have the basic capability of hopefully putting 3-6 rounds of buck on 1 or 2 attackers within .75 to 1.5 seconds, and hoping that only 1 or 2 hits within .25 - .5 seconds would end up being "fast enough".  Thankfully, I never had to find out.

Once I stopped working so frequently with the 870's, meaning after I retired and slowed down my teaching activities, I was satisfied to be able to pick up one of our 870's just a handful of times a year and do a "cold" half second "double tap" of buck or slugs, or sometimes (on a good day) maybe have the remaining "timing" to make 3 hits in 3/4's of a second. Realistically, I just didn't see the "need" to continue to punish myself trying to run a pump using buck or slugs and empty a 6rd extended mag so quickly. Besides, my own 870 only has the standard 4-rd tube. :)

[Moshe]

18 hours ago, Belt Fed said:

How many rounds a minute you think you can fire in it if you didn't have to swap mags? a blink of an eye is lot faster than a second. so you're mini gun fast?

Till my trigger finger got tired?  I don't know.  I just loaded my first 33 rounds of 10mm 200gr hollows the other day.  I have several mags loaded up, always do.  Any empty mag is about as useful as a stapler.  I am out of that caliber except plenty of hard cast that I used to load and carry when I was hunting.  With nothing but a head lamp and a trail, there was a good chance of disturbing a large boar that time of morning.  Not exactly something I want to carry in a public arena, unless I like the concept of multiple person through and throughs, which I don't.