Co-Opting

[Moshe]

It is not secret I did not go to Church with the family last Shabbat as all my nerve endings were firing and the wind blowing off the water made my bones ache, especially the one's I have injured over the years.  My son recorded the sermon with a white goyim Texan talking in the royal "we" had a Great Exodus from Egypt.  I find that as ridiculous as talking to a mostly black church and saying, "It is great that WE had the Emancipation Proclamation."; or "It was good WE marched with Martin Luther King Jr."; or "It is good WE were with Nelson Mandela to end apartheid."   The goyim Texan can no more claim his Exodus from Egyptian slavery, more than I can claim to have been a black slave. 

[Maccabeus]

Well, on the one hand, I'm not sure that I would disagree with you on the awkwardness of such claims.  It seems a bit absurd and certainly would have raised my eyebrows at the least.

But, on the other hand, this is the internet and agreeing with each other all the time isn't as much fun, so, for the sake of argument, there is a sense in which his statement can be taken as accurate.  We know that the mentality and perspective of the Jewish community is one of connection to their ancestors and "participation" in the events of their people in prior times.  This isn't a new thing, but was taught to them by the Lord through Moses in Scripture.  Each new generation was to identify with the rescue God worked for them as an entire people:

²⁰ “When your son asks you in time to come, ‘What is the meaning of the testimonies and the statutes and the rules that the Lord our God has commanded you?’ ²¹ then you shall say to your son, ‘We were Pharaoh's slaves in Egypt. And the Lord brought us out of Egypt with a mighty hand. ²² And the Lord showed signs and wonders, great and grievous, against Egypt and against Pharaoh and all his household, before our eyes. ²³ And he brought us out from there, that he might bring us in and give us the land that he swore to give to our fathers. ²⁴ And the Lord commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the Lord our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as we are this day.  (Deut. 6; see also, Ex. 12:26-27, 13:5-8, etc.).

Now, go to the Lord's teaching in the New Testament, such as in John 15 where He teaches that He is the true vine to whom we must be connected and in Romans 11, where His Spirit teaches through the Apostle that the Nations can be grafted into the vine by faith and have a rootedness and connection going all the way back to Abraham, then, by virtue of being an adopted member of the one plant/body, yes, even a white, Texan preacher from the Nations is now an honorary part of God's people (not unlike Rahab or Ruth, et al.) and therefore should also remember what was done for his spiritual forefathers and recognize God's work of rescue on behalf of the faithful in the Exodus event.

So, there you go.  Now you don't have to be annoyed at him anymore.

But, personally, I wouldn't say it that way, even if there is spiritual/theological truth to be found in his statement. ?

[Moshe]

3 hours ago, Maccabeus said:

Well, on the one hand, I'm not sure that I would disagree with you on the awkwardness of such claims.  It seems a bit absurd and certainly would have raised my eyebrows at the least.

But, on the other hand, this is the internet and agreeing with each other all the time isn't as much fun, so, for the sake of argument, there is a sense in which his statement can be taken as accurate.  We know that the mentality and perspective of the Jewish community is one of connection to their ancestors and "participation" in the events of their people in prior times.  This isn't a new thing, but was taught to them by the Lord through Moses in Scripture.  Each new generation was to identify with the rescue God worked for them as an entire people:

²⁰ “When your son asks you in time to come, ‘What is the meaning of the testimonies and the statutes and the rules that the Lord our God has commanded you?’ ²¹ then you shall say to your son, ‘We were Pharaoh's slaves in Egypt. And the Lord brought us out of Egypt with a mighty hand. ²² And the Lord showed signs and wonders, great and grievous, against Egypt and against Pharaoh and all his household, before our eyes. ²³ And he brought us out from there, that he might bring us in and give us the land that he swore to give to our fathers. ²⁴ And the Lord commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the Lord our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as we are this day.  (Deut. 6; see also, Ex. 12:26-27, 13:5-8, etc.).

Now, go to the Lord's teaching in the New Testament, such as in John 15 where He teaches that He is the true vine to whom we must be connected and in Romans 11, where His Spirit teaches through the Apostle that the Nations can be grafted into the vine by faith and have a rootedness and connection going all the way back to Abraham, then, by virtue of being an adopted member of the one plant/body, yes, even a white, Texan preacher from the Nations is now an honorary part of God's people (not unlike Rahab or Ruth, et al.) and therefore should also remember what was done for his spiritual forefathers and recognize God's work of rescue on behalf of the faithful in the Exodus event.

So, there you go.  Now you don't have to be annoyed at him anymore.

But, personally, I wouldn't say it that way, even if there is spiritual/theological truth to be found in his statement. ?

You will notice it also admonishes the grafted in to the vine not to be arrogant (claiming a history that is not theirs,) as gentiles (goyiim), and that it affirms that Israel will redeemed as Hashem's people.  So, in this, the grafted is claiming, arrogantly to be an original branch, which is in exact disagreement with Romans 11.  In fact, I have heard people in a similar vein claim to be "Spiritual Israel," to say that all of Israel is irredeemable and in their arrogance claim to be the new and only descendants.  It is like telling a group of black people, that they are not really black, "I am the Spiritual Inheritor" or their blackness, only, in this since, I find it worse.  A protestant group, especially one that participated in the shoa (holocaust) now claiming to co-opt the people of Hashem?

Edited January 15, 2019 by Moshe

[Maccabeus]

I agree that a belief of true co-opting (Replacement Theology) is erroneous.

Yet, the Scriptures are clear about adoption into the family, being full and complete heirs alongside the believing members of Israel, and that, strictly speaking, In Messiah, the categories of Jew and Gentile no longer apply.  There are those who fear, love, and trust in God and those who still need to.  There are no top tier believers who have more rank or status over any others, be they from the genetic line of Ya'aqov or merely share the faith of Avraham.  All those who trust and obey Yeshua Messiah are the people of God. 

"Do not think of saying to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that God is able to raise up children for Abraham from these stones."

and

⁴⁷ Someone said to him, “Look, your mother and your brothers are standing outside, wanting to talk to you.”

⁴⁸ But he replied to the one who told him, “Who is my mother? And who are my brothers?” ⁴⁹ He reached out his hand toward his disciples and said, “See, my mother and my brothers! ⁵⁰ For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

[Moshe]

15 minutes ago, Maccabeus said:

I agree that a belief of true co-opting (Replacement Theology) is erroneous.

Yet, the Scriptures are clear about adoption into the family, being full and complete heirs alongside the believing members of Israel, and that, strictly speaking, In Messiah, the categories of Jew and Gentile no longer apply.  There are those who fear, love, and trust in God and those who still need to.  There are no top tier believers who have more rank or status over any others, be they from the genetic line of Ya'aqov or merely share the faith of Avraham.  All those who trust and obey Yeshua Messiah are the people of God. 

"Do not think of saying to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that God is able to raise up children for Abraham from these stones."

and

⁴⁷ Someone said to him, “Look, your mother and your brothers are standing outside, wanting to talk to you.”

⁴⁸ But he replied to the one who told him, “Who is my mother? And who are my brothers?” ⁴⁹ He reached out his hand toward his disciples and said, “See, my mother and my brothers! ⁵⁰ For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

https://news.adventist.org/en/all-news/news/go/2005-08-15/europe-german-austrian-churches-apologize-for-holocaust-actions/

 

These are the people now claim to Co-opt Judaism, and have still to this day Anti-Semitic views including support for Walter Veith, the guy in Germany who said it was good 54 million Jews were exterminated, so now they can all be in one place.  Routine stupid lies are that Israel is now keeping Sunday holy, when 5 minutes on google shows that Israelis just wanted a weekend off like the United States.  A lot of former lesson studies are about how the Jews are bad, and they have been set aside by Hashem, and this SDA group has inherited all that Judaism was.  That is grafted in vine being not only arrogant but Anti-Semitic.  To me, that is beyond fail.  Hashem's blessing are not revocable.  Jews are still Hashem's people, and, no offense to my Jewish brethren (who I refuse to argue/fight with), the ultimate form of Judaism is accepting Yeshua as the Messiah.  Even in Israel today there are 40k who are Messianic.  So, for someone to pop up in 1844, and say, we're taking your place, and the participate in holocaust, and persist in Anti-Semitic views to this day, seems very much against Romans 11.

[Dog Soldier]

Some of the best sermons I have heard were sung by coyotes.  Some where between day light and dark on high Butte just North of me they send out a melodies message. Don't believe that? Just listen closely as the sun

rises above  the Eastern desert.

[Moshe]

Every time I used to go hunting I would be sitting out before dark.  Here in the woods of East Texas, you can hear the coyotes right before dawn.  Right before it gets the coldest part before the sun rises.  We had a symbiotic relationship.  The deer hides and guts we would leave for them to eat away from the deer camp.  They ate what we left them, and let us alone to hunt.

[eruby]

WE were slaves, to Pharaoh, in Egypt. ?

Moshe, what does the cross inside the Magen David signify?

 

 

[Moshe]

It signifies that I have accepted the Messiah as already come, and waiting on His return.   I have found a Messianic Jewish group that is wiling to take me in.  I got an e-mail from Rabbi "Larry" wondering where I have been.  I explained between weather. illness, and now ptosis surgery that makes me took like a bruised, Ebola victim it may be awhile.  But, I plan on being there with my son..  I have Jewish ancestry on both sides of my family, and passed on a good 20 percent to my son.  Though you would not know it to look at him, as he has his mother's blonde hair and blue eyes.  Thus the Star of David is my race/lineage.  The Cross represents that I believe Yeshua has come, been crucified, ascended, and is returning. 

Yes, I realize to my other people of Judaic lineage, this represents for lack of a better word, a turn coat.  So, I have faced vitriol from so-called Christians to include violence.  I am looking for a safe haven to worship freely, amongst those of Jewish background who think as I do.  There is not perfect institution led by men, but I prefer to keep my keep molars where they belong, and my ribs not bruised.  That, and I am tired to listening to bigoted SDA's that claim they have Co-Opted the people of Hashem.  They are the wild branches grafted in that Romans warns them not be arrogant.  However, many have transcended arrogance to battery.  It is why I carry.  I trust no one implicitly. 

[Moshe]

On ‎3‎/‎6‎/‎2019 at 6:27 AM, eruby said:

WE were slaves, to Pharaoh, in Egypt. ?

Moshe, what does the cross inside the Magen David signify?

 

 

Yes, we were slaves long before African tribes abducted other African tribes and sold them to Dutch traders.

[eruby]

On 3/10/2019 at 9:04 AM, Moshe said:

Yes, we were slaves long before African tribes abducted other African tribes and sold them to Dutch traders.

I apologize if my post made you angry.  It wasn't my intent, and I did put a smiley at the end.

 

My question about the cross inside the Star of David stands. What is its significance?

 

I hope you will have a festive Purim!!

 

 

[Moshe]

25 minutes ago, eruby said:

I apologize if my post made you angry.  It wasn't my intent, and I did put a smiley at the end.

 

My question about the cross inside the Star of David stands. What is its significance?

 

I hope you will have a festive Purim!!

 

 

You're post did not make me angry.  I was simply trying to explain.

[eruby]

On 3/11/2019 at 11:14 AM, Moshe said:

You're post did not make me angry.  I was simply trying to explain.

 

I'm still curious about the cross in the Star of David.

[Moshe]

4 hours ago, eruby said:

 

I'm still curious about the cross in the Star of David.

I am Jewish from both sides of my family, genetically.  From my mother's side I got donated OPMD, which is a problem with the Sephardic line.  So, I am Jewish.  Thus the Star of David.  Both German and Sephardic.  I have done extensive research through the family line, and most of it comes from my mother's side, some from my father's side.  The disease is Autosomal, which my mother has a milder version.   Mine is off the charts.  Part of being scattered all over the face of the earth.  I can trace back to the 19th century, but the registry doesn't go far enough, which is why I have mid 19th Century marriage of the Lowe family,  So, genetically, I am a good 40 percent Jewish.  So, race, is the Star of David, the cross is religious choice.  Essentially, I am Messianic Jewish.  I could have done without the OPMD gene, which led me to investigate my roots.  I always want to know what the truth is, and I am a honey badger when it comes to that issue.  Why do I have this disease?  Well, it affects Hispanics, I am not Hispanic.  It affects French Canadians, I am not French Canadian.  So, I dug deep through family records and compared them to the registry and last names as to Sephardic, vs. Non-Sephardic.  I discovered a lot of history.  Those who were in the U.S. Census that were here before 1930 lived on.  I even tracked down the source of the disease, to the Leonhardt Birchtold line.  Of course the, 1930's census changed his name to Lenard.  Like Ellis Island, the 1930's census takers could care less how a Yid's name was spelled.  He was shot to death because he would not allow a suitor to marry one of his daughters, at age 40.

So, I discovered who and what I was.  Many family members who did not immigrate or weren't here before 1930 were part of the Shoa. 

Long story short, race and ethnicity is Jewish (Star of David). The cross is because I have accepted Yeshua as the Messiah.  So, no offense to you if you are Orthodox.  I prefer to co-exist with Jewish people of all stripes, simply because we have been through enough without infighting.  So, that is my story.  I have found a synagogue 60 miles away of Messianics.  I prefer the company of people who aren't racist, as I have experienced in the SDA Church, where my wife was raised and prefers to go.  To her racism and violence isn't a huge issue for her, because, well, it has never affected her. 

[eruby]

Wow, that's a hell of a story Moshe.  I am sorry to hear about the muscular dystrophy, and I hope G-d will grant you peace in your struggle.

I am a 'Doc Holliday' Jew, as "my hypocrisy knows no bounds."  We keep a kosher home, and even have Passover meat and milk dishes/cookware, but, I may or may not have espoused Vincent Vega, in re bacon.

I would hope even Orthodox Jews would be tolerant of anyone who is pro gun, but people in Hell hope for ice water.

Be as well as you can be, good sir!!

[Moshe]

Thanks.  We eat kosher meats according to the rules set by Leviticus.  I do my best to keep the Shabbat, but I get bored as all out, when I am home alone waiting for the sun to set. I wish there are more dishes I could get around here.  I am just happy to have perogies for lunch.  The only good bagel and lochs is all the way in Houston.  That was a hole in the wall.  No matter the smoked salmon, cream cheese, and capers, I can't seem to reproduce it.   The eyes are improving, I am hoping, if my wife is not involved in her Church this week, as I wanted to, and it sounds weird to say, attend synagogue with Rabbi "Larry."  Larry has the deepest East Texas accent I have heard.  I have my Messianic prayer shawl, but the kippah they make with a Messianic symbol would fit a toddler.  My hair is too short right now to pin it in.  Then most of the kippahs they make are mostly black, which is kind of rude unless you are sitting Shiva with someone, or are Ben Shapiro.  I guess I will how it goes, and see if they have a loner.  The major holiday's are kept there including Hanukah.  I am fine with it, but I am not a dreidel guy.  This last year my daughter and wife put up the tree.  It seems silly to me.  We have a forest all around, and somehow we need a tree in our house?

I try to be tolerant of everyone of Jewish descent, because we have been through enough already.  Now, there are people I don't like.  But, I am not going to send them hate mail.  Sara Silverman and Bernie Sanders rise to the top of people I don't like.  But, I have no desire to pick a fight with either one.  I just leave them be.  Strange they did not name her Hadassah instead of Sara.  I know a mixed race (black Hispanic) and (white guy)-nice people.  Not a drop of Jewish blood in either and they named their first daughter Hadassah.

[eruby]

I want to open a kosher Mexican restaurant.

I will call it Casa Hadassah.

 

And Happy Purim!!!!

 

Edited March 20, 2019 by eruby

[Moshe]

Happy Purim,

I think you would do well with that restaurant, especially if you can speak Spanish.  Honestly, that is why my father wants me move to the NM liberal State, I can't stand.  The reason being is because I can read/write/speak Spanish fairly fluently.  The people that remodels his rentals all primarily speak Spanish.  He has a hell of a time communicating with them.  So, essentially he wants a translator.  When he calls me on preparation day or on the Shabbat he asks me all kinds of Spanish questions.  "What does this road mean?"  "What does this word mean?"

[Moshe]

I am too exhausted to read the tale to my children, and my wife will be in no mood when she is back about 9:00PM.  But, anytime we can celebrate not being exterminated is a good day.  I wonder if we can start a vigil for when Hitler defeated and killed.  It would be like Purim Part II.  On the bright side like Haman, Benito Mussolini was hung, just not by his big head.  My Grandfather in World War II, was in the European campaign and got to witness that spectacle. I wonder  when his body finally slipped off if he got a post mortem circumcision. 

[Moshe]

Happy Preparation Day.  

[Moshe]

Just got back from the Messianic Synagogue.  I liked the sense of community.  Some of the doctrines were a bit different.  For instance, I believe in a triune, they believe that there is only One with multiple facets of a personality.  But, it was interesting having a belated Purim celebration.  Most of the men have the same prayer shawls I did.  Kippahs were in a wide range, so I should be able to find something my size.  Since they were renting space and only have the building for the Shabbat, they did a delayed Purim.  Had some Haman's ears for the potluck which was interesting.  They did the Purim mostly for the kids.  

Some differences for me, as well, is Yeshua works on his own time table, whereas they claim Israel has to call him back.  To me that was a little too close to the concept of the Catholic Concept of the Eucharist.   We of Jewish blood cannot call or command Yeshua to do anything.

Edited March 23, 2019 by Moshe

[Maccabeus]

Hmmm... nice folks in a friendly community or not, they sound confused and, if your read of their teaching is correct, they don't teach the Biblical faith.

If the One LORD isn't triune, then Yeshua is just putting on a show in the Garden of Gethsemane and talking to himself.  Likewise, at the Yarden river and on the Mount of Transfiguration, he was doing some ventriloquism rather than interacting with the other Persons of the Godhead.

Oneness Theology isn't the shared faith of the Messianics & Christians of the past 2000 years.  It is a variant of Unitarianism and is what has been regarded as heresy in days gone by.  Oneness beliefs are typically either the ancient heresies of Modalism or Dynamic Monarchianism.  It sounds like they may hold to the Modalism variety.

To me, correct teaching is WAY more important than a shared culture or similar tastes in prayer shawls.  I'll pray that the LORD blesses you with wisdom as you seek a faithful community of believers to connect with.

"Dear friends, I was busily at work writing to you about the salvation we share, when I found it necessary to write, urging you to keep contending earnestly for the faith which was once and for all passed on to God’s people."  Y'hudah 3

[Moshe]

Unfortunately, the more correct teachings, not that any have room for improvement is very anti-Semitic,, thus the search for community.  Yes, I believe in the Triune.  The interesting thing, is they listed in Hebrew Hashem, Yeshua, and r'uach or the Holy Spirit.  So, for me, they got wrapped around the axel somehow on that, to mention all of the Triune.  They were stuck on Hear oh Israel our G-d Is One.   They adopted the Orthodox Concept of One-ness rather than unity.  I was wondering how they were going to get past Genesis that was making Man in OUR image.  Again they proposed it was different aspects of the same G-d.  I think the general confusion they have is the leader is Gentile and so is his wife.  The leader is studying Hebrew from an Orthodox Rabbi, and I can see someone getting themselves wrapped around the axis with bad information.  Essentially, you have two former Baptists discovering the Shabbat and going from there.  

Most of the celebration there is appropriate.  Holy dance rather than inappropriate.  The bringing out of the Torah in a scroll.  They were confused on the state of the dead, as I find most former Baptists to be.  The concept that you die and go straight to heaven or hell, is not Biblical.  Otherwise,, the loud and earth shattering return of Yeshua with the resurrection would be pointless.  Another point of contention I had was that somehow Israel, specifically Jews can call Yeshua back.  Well, I can howl at the moon, that does not change the divine time table.  They were staking a snipper of Matthew 23 to justify that.  Apparently, they forgot the passage that no man knows the Day nor the Hour.  

It was nice visiting.  Very nice people.  But, I am of the opinion as a guest to observe and form my own opinions, rather than be disruptive.  I plan on visiting them more in the future.   Until I am given a voice I won't preach out of respect.  I have given many sermons in the past, based on Sola Scriptura.  Line upon line, precept upon precept.  My opinion is through proper study of scripture it reveals its truth.

[Moshe]

Another thing that occurred to me, that did not in the least bother me, is the Goy "Rabbi" carried the micro 9mm in the open.  That only makes sense in an era of serious Anti-Semitism.  Little did they know I was carrying my FNX-Tactical .45 ACP, and yes, a total of seven magazines.  It only made sense when there was a big Star of David outside.  It was interesting that I could guess who was goy and who wasn't there.  The older man that hugged me, was definitely not goy.  An older woman was not.  It was also interesting that it was inter-racial, not that I care.  From White goy, to White Jew, to Hispanic and Black.  There was no cold shoulder, no animas that I was used to.  It is a shame the Goy leader was learning his Hebrew from an Orthodox Jew Rabbi (not that I have anything against them).  It just got him wrapped around the axel as to the Triune.  Instead of thinking of the Unity of the Triune treating it as personality aspect of Hashem didn't make sense to me at all.  I could have pointed out the NT where Yeshua prays for believers that they be unified as the Triune is Unified.  I could have pointed out, yes, we are still people of Hashem, and they are grafted in, and don't get me wrong I am very Pro-Israel.  However, Israel doesn't demand when Yeshua returns as they suggested.  A vestige of Baptism I think. 

We left early because it is a good hour drive home, and my daughter celebrated her birthday Sunday, and her friend was coming over at 1700.  Their services ended at 1800.  I was surprised when the Rabbi stopped speaking and chased us down in the parking lot.  I guess actual Jews excites him.  Actual Jews and spending time with them makes me feel less lonely.  Even more lonely, though, when you are conservative, and believe in the Messiah. 

They made a solid point, that those of us that are Jewish prefer the term Yeshua, rather than the Greek Jesus.  The reason being so much destruction has been thrown our way in the misapplication of the name "Jesus."  Though in truth it doesn't make a lot of sense because they are the same thing in two languages.  But, one name invokes the fear of persecution, harm, and death at the hands of others.  I guess that is why Patriotism makes us proud, and Nationalism scares the hell out of us by implication.