PNWguy Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 One of the biggest annoyances I have encountered in real life and on internet forums are people who have no concept of quality vs. crappy. These are the people who continued to buy American cars in the 90's because they were oblivious to fit and finish. They seemed blind to body panels with huge gaps, rattles, squeaks, and other annoyances that drive me crazy. And it's not the fact that they are ignorant of such differences, but that they are so insistent on remaining ignorant and attacking those who aren't. So many knock down, drag out fights on the internet over the years regarding the glaringly obvious superiority in quality of some vehicles over others. I was originally going to post this in the Arms Room in reference to folks picking up two different firearms vastly different in fit and finish and declaring them equal because they lack the perception to discern differences in machining, quality of parts, tolerances, and overall "tightness" of the firearm. I don't understand how someone can pick up a $300 Ruger Security 9 and declare it equal to an XDM or 226. I ordered my $200 Taurus sight unseen based on glowing reviews online. It arrived and I was impressed by the quality. The tolerances and overall feel is impressive and the quality of materials is apparent. Of course there are some issues. The slide finish is weak and scratches easily. The internal action parts are a bit rough. Sights are cheap plastic. Trigger feel is awful. I would never say it is equal to a Glock, or XD, or Sig. But I would say it is superior to a Ruger; All of the cheap Rugers just "feel" cheap. You can see the machining marks and the grain structure in the slides. Shooting a Ruger semi-auto is akin to driving a `91 Olds Cutlass; you can feel the lack of quality and refinement. But they work and people like them. Fine. It's like me and wine. I can't discern the difference between a $300 bottle and a $10 bottle when it comes to taste. But I would never argue to the point of insults that the $10 bottle of wine is equal to the $300 bottle just because I am ignorant to the subtle differences. Rant off... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XSIV4S Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 I've seen the same thing in the automotive repair world for 35 years. People thinking all parts, repair jobs and mechanics are created equal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XSIV4S Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 Same thing with ammo and even variances between batches of the same ammo. If I'm really looking to impress someone at the range the night before I use a digital caliper and scale to find 20-30 just about identical rounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heehaw Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 Hmm.....I suppose it depends on how you qualify the word "quality". Is quality dependent upon fit and finish? Respectively to guns, is quality dependent on function? Both? I'm a glock guy. Are they ugly? Heck yeah. Would I function test it against any other gun maker? Heck yeah. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrice Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 (edited) ..... Edited July 13, 2018 by Patrice 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cubdriver Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 1 hour ago, Patrice said: Hhmmm....Well, quality speaks for itself, and I guess that which is lesser should never be spoken of in the same breath. Personally though, I just buy what I can afford or &/or make do w/ what I've got...but then I'm just one of those deplorables, living in rural flyover country. Guess being mixed-blood doesn't help in my discernment either, since I'm likely not the politically-correct blend. I'll never bemoan not having the best, and I shall try never to brag on what I do have, cause I know for certain that I have more than a lot of folks. Shoot, gourmet food is wasted on me, as I'll eat and appreciate whatever is served. I'm always happy to just get enough to fill me up. [I can eat a lot. <smile>] I never chased after quality; if it happened to come to me I tried to take care of it & to appreciate the sacrifices which brought it into my hands. Again, just happy to be able have what I need and to afford some things that I want; doesn't ever have to be the best though. I'll close this post with a sincere "Best Wishes, to all." [I figure anything less would be just another annoyance, and I sure wouldn't want to do that.... <smile>] Why do almost all of your posts eventually disappear? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZ Husker Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 As I get older my tastes have refined. I used to belong to the school of "more the better". Now I've realized that I could have purchased true quality in a few handguns instead. Man I wish I had my prized guns back then. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fnfalman Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 4 hours ago, PNWguy said: I don't understand how someone can pick up a $300 Ruger Security 9 and declare it equal to an XDM or 226. I Did you just refer to a Croatian Abortion as a "quality" firearm with high level of fit and finish? Or an American made 226 for the same thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nestor Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 7 hours ago, PNWguy said: One of the biggest annoyances I have encountered in real life and on internet forums are people who have no concept of quality vs. crappy. These are the people who continued to buy American cars in the 90's because they were oblivious to fit and finish. They seemed blind to body panels with huge gaps, rattles, squeaks, and other annoyances that drive me crazy. And it's not the fact that they are ignorant of such differences, but that they are so insistent on remaining ignorant and attacking those who aren't. So many knock down, drag out fights on the internet over the years regarding the glaringly obvious superiority in quality of some vehicles over others. I was originally going to post this in the Arms Room in reference to folks picking up two different firearms vastly different in fit and finish and declaring them equal because they lack the perception to discern differences in machining, quality of parts, tolerances, and overall "tightness" of the firearm. I don't understand how someone can pick up a $300 Ruger Security 9 and declare it equal to an XDM or 226. I ordered my $200 Taurus sight unseen based on glowing reviews online. It arrived and I was impressed by the quality. The tolerances and overall feel is impressive and the quality of materials is apparent. Of course there are some issues. The slide finish is weak and scratches easily. The internal action parts are a bit rough. Sights are cheap plastic. Trigger feel is awful. I would never say it is equal to a Glock, or XD, or Sig. But I would say it is superior to a Ruger; All of the cheap Rugers just "feel" cheap. You can see the machining marks and the grain structure in the slides. Shooting a Ruger semi-auto is akin to driving a `91 Olds Cutlass; you can feel the lack of quality and refinement. But they work and people like them. Fine. It's like me and wine. I can't discern the difference between a $300 bottle and a $10 bottle when it comes to taste. But I would never argue to the point of insults that the $10 bottle of wine is equal to the $300 bottle just because I am ignorant to the subtle differences. Rant off... Actually there are quite a few, professional wine reviewers who wouldn't agree with you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batesmotel Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 People will pass on quality for looks or appearances. I see this in kitchen knives. Better to have a giant, matching set horrid of knives in a big fancy block than to have just a few high quality blades. My wife’s family is this way. They think serrated edges and dishwasher safe are good things. They make fun of my knives because they don’t match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XSIV4S Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 40 minutes ago, Batesmotel said: People will pass on quality for looks or appearances. I see this in kitchen knives. Better to have a giant, matching set horrid of knives in a big fancy block than to have just a few high quality blades. My wife’s family is this way. They think serrated edges and dishwasher safe are good things. They make fun of my knives because they don’t match. Well if you got a knife in your hand and an A-hole in front of you...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glocks4Freedom Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 59 minutes ago, Batesmotel said: They make fun of my knives because they don’t match. My wife stopped making fun of my non-matching, "ugly" Japanese kitchen knives once she realized how sharp they stay and how comfortable they are in your hand. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silentpoet Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 Some people don't appreciate the finer things in life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moeman Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 Beretta handguns slides roll like they are are balll bearings. Kershaw knifes speed assist are awesome. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boogieman Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 There is always the compromise between quality and cost. And the cost of quality grows exponentially. You want some thing 10% better? It will cost 50% more. I have custom 1911's that will out shoot anything YOU have. Are my Heinie 1911's worth $5-6-7-8K? Maybe? I think so. Perfection is expensive. The labor of a highly skilled artesian is at a premium. Can they be used to defend my life better than a Glock 19? Probably not. Quality is like horsepower. Small increases cost huge money. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Rabbi Posted July 13, 2018 Administrators Share Posted July 13, 2018 Meh. As I get older I find myself entrenching in a lot of my brands. Which is exactly what the data shows is normal. For example, I buy "my" razor. I do not look for other options. I found one that works and I keep buying it. The advantage of this is I know exactly what to expect and I do not have to expend any effort. The disadvantage is I may be missing out of something better. The buying motive is a damned complex issue. There is far more to it than "quality" which could be a nebulous or disagreed upon issue anyways. Specific to guns, a lot of "which is better" is often an academic argument. For example (making **** up) You have a 500 dollar Glock. It will last for 100,000 rounds and have a failure rate of 1%. You have a 400 dollar Ruger. It will last for 50,000 rounds and have a 1% failure rate. The Glock is certainly better but they both have the same reliability. If you will shoot 100,000 rounds, the Glock is also a far better value. IF you are going to probably shoot it once or a few hundred rounds ever, It does not matter which gun you pick and if you like the Ruger, you are getting a better value. Again the buying motive for any single person is damned complex. What meets the needs of one person may not be the correct choice for another, even if the first person chose a higher quality product. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norton Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 I think its the old "I know what I like when I see it" syndrome. American Cars-maybe what the buyer sees is the history. Henry Ford building cars on the assembly line, GM sending trucks all over the world during WW2, people working at American automotive plants making a good living and living the good life. A Korean, Japanese, German (fill in the blank) may have better fit and finish, but to many of us buying one of those is, well, Un American. If you like your foreign car (yeah, I know, car parts now are sourced all over the world) then go buy one. If its really superior to my car go ahead and gloat about it. Just don't think you are going to change many minds. America. We have choices. Lucky us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger1079 Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 On 7/12/2018 at 4:04 PM, Fnfalman said: Did you just refer to a Croatian Abortion as a "quality" firearm with high level of fit and finish? Or an American made 226 for the same thing? I believe so. I bought an XDM that was in the used counter at my local store for $325. I sold it a week later for what I bought it for It definitely wasn't what I expected from a "match" grade pistol. As far as the 226 goes, I would always choose one born in Germany to one from the US, but I've found the US Sigs to be suitable for my needs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger1079 Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 On 7/12/2018 at 7:14 PM, Nestor said: Actually there are quite a few, professional wine reviewers who wouldn't agree with you... I'm sure there are, but I can't tell the difference either. Then again, I also couldn't taste a difference between Johnnie Black Label and Blue Label or between a $500 bottle of Gran Patron Burdeos and a $50 bottle of Patron Anejo. I'm sure some will say I am out of my mind, but taste is a very subjective thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger1079 Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 On 7/13/2018 at 1:34 AM, Boogieman said: There is always the compromise between quality and cost. And the cost of quality grows exponentially. You want some thing 10% better? It will cost 50% more. I have custom 1911's that will out shoot anything YOU have. Are my Heinie 1911's worth $5-6-7-8K? Maybe? I think so. Perfection is expensive. The labor of a highly skilled artesian is at a premium. Can they be used to defend my life better than a Glock 19? Probably not. Quality is like horsepower. Small increases cost huge money. I had the good fortune of being at the range helping the owner out behind the counter when a Christensen Arms rep came in. They are a lesser known brand, but their bolt action rifles are incredible. They just happened to be breaking into the AR-15 and 1911 market at that time. I was able to take advantage of their dealer employee incentive program which at the time was 50% off of MSRP. I ordered a custom 1911 with a titanium frame and rail in burnt bronze. Price ended up being $2200 for the custom build after the discount. I will say this, my Kimbers all rang in around $1100 and I thought they were great. When the 1911 from Christensen arrived, it made my Kimber's (which were always reliable and accurate) feel like poorly built junk. The smooth and light trigger, controls that snap into place when operated, and lack of any play in any of the moving parts changed my perception of 1911's completely as I had never actually fired a hand fitted 1911 before that. Was it worth what I paid? To me, it would have been worth it even if I had to buy it at full price. Again though, it's all subjective. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boogieman Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 11 minutes ago, Roger1079 said: I ordered a custom 1911 with a titanium frame and rail in burnt bronze. Any galling issues with the titanium frame? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XSIV4S Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 I guess I'm not that discerning, but a company or product only gets one chance to screw me over. I ate at Chipotles about once a week for years until the day that they made an honest effort to poison me and my brother. I expect a great deal from a home defense weapon and if it jams and its not caused by an excessive range time or broken part it's gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Galt Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 (edited) Quality is subjective. I do not purchase things because they are cool, I purchase things because I have a use for them. If I'm only going to use something once then I'm going for the cheapest I can get away with. If I know I'll be using it for long time I will buy the best quality (to me) that I can afford. My $500 Glock does the same job as well as a $1200 Sig or $2500 1911. Does the Sig or 1911 have better "quality"? Probably. Will they last as long or longer than my Glock? Maybe, maybe not, time will tell, but it works for me. In 2001 I spent over $100 on a Surefire E1 and a couple of spare bulbs. My friends thought I was nuts. But that light is still in my pocket as I write this, I still have 1 spare bulb left and it does what I need it to do. Quality to me simply means a product will do what I need it to do for as long as I need it to do it. Edited July 14, 2018 by John Galt 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger1079 Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 28 minutes ago, Boogieman said: Any galling issues with the titanium frame? None so far, but I barely have 500 rounds through it and it is cleaned and lubricated after every range trip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boogieman Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 Just now, Roger1079 said: None so far, but I barely have 500 rounds through it and it is cleaned and lubricated after every range trip. Cool. Any chance of some pics? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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