XSIV4S Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 36 minutes ago, Rabbi said: Nope. It does not matter the form of energy (chemical, electrical, nuclear...) entropy always wins. The energy density of fuel is 46.4-55.5 depending on the type (Gas, diesel, natural, etc.). The energy density of hydrogen plus oxygen is about 1/3 of that at 15.8. Fuel requires a fair amount of mechanized help before it is spinning the tires of a car (Loads of processing and energy used to turn it into fuel and delivering it to the nearest gas pump, then once in the car a pump, injectors, fuel aeration, combustion, etc. plus all the other vehicle systems). I guess what I was curious about was whether water with minimal processing to turn it into hydrogen and oxygen would be viable for fuel use at 1/3 the energy capacity? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XSIV4S Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 5 minutes ago, crockett said: You can even fly with solar energy alone. Batteries being charged at day time for night flight. This one circumnavigated earth in 6 legs. Anyways, this is and will be commercially infeasible. hang gliders have recorded flights of over 600 miles and can stay up all day with good winds and updrafts. Add the smallest of motors and batteries and it would be up significantly longer. Not a 1 to 1 comparison with an automobile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
janice6 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 23 minutes ago, Rabbi said: The problem with that is you will never get there in the real world. In the real world there are clouds, night, various atmospheric conditions and the sun hits the surface at its peak only for a moment as the earth turns. For the most part, solar needs storage. So that all the time it is not being used it can “catch up” by storing energy for when a use arises. That at is what gas is. Stored solar energy. Absolutely! this is the reason that Gas is such a good fuel, and it's "relatively" cheap! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glocks4Freedom Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 1 minute ago, janice6 said: Absolutely! this is the reason that Gas is such a good fuel, and it's "relatively" cheap! 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XSIV4S Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 2 minutes ago, janice6 said: Absolutely! this is the reason that Gas is such a good fuel, and it's "relatively" cheap! +1. The slightest overcast condition or dirty glass on the panels can affect the energy production of the panels greatly. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
janice6 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 Just now, XSIV4S said: +1. The slightest overcast condition or dirty glass on the panels can affect the energy production of the panels greatly. Besides, your location on the Earth will change the results greatly! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigobsessed Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 Solar energy is awesome for tanning my skin dude! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glocks4Freedom Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 1 minute ago, Sigobsessed said: Solar energy is awesome for tanning my skin dude! Bite me!!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigobsessed Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 Just now, Glocks4Freedom said: Bite me!!! Be careful you might loose an ear askin me ta bitecha! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Rabbi Posted July 12, 2018 Administrators Share Posted July 12, 2018 39 minutes ago, XSIV4S said: The energy density of fuel is 46.4-55.5 depending on the type (Gas, diesel, natural, etc.). The energy density of hydrogen plus oxygen is about 1/3 of that at 15.8. Fuel requires a fair amount of mechanized help before it is spinning the tires of a car (Loads of processing and energy used to turn it into fuel and delivering it to the nearest gas pump, then once in the car a pump, injectors, fuel aeration, combustion, etc. plus all the other vehicle systems). I guess what I was curious about was whether water with minimal processing to turn it into hydrogen and oxygen would be viable for fuel use at 1/3 the energy capacity? It takes a lot of energy to crack water. You do not get that energy back Again, entropy always wins We could have a hydrogen economy insted of an oil economy, but our planet already built the infrastructure for an oil powered world. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigobsessed Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 2 minutes ago, Rabbi said: It takes a lot of energy to crack water. You do not get that energy back Again, entropy always wins we could have a hydrogen economy insted of an oil economy, bit our planet already built the infrastructure for an oil powered world. We could use solar energy to crack the water! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glocks4Freedom Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 4 minutes ago, Rabbi said: You do not get that energy back Again, entropy always wins 11th grade - we're spinning our wheels! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Rabbi Posted July 12, 2018 Administrators Share Posted July 12, 2018 2 minutes ago, Sigobsessed said: We could use solar energy to crack the water! Sure. If you need the hydrogen. However it would be more efficient to directly use the solar energy. Again, as you add steps, you increase entropy. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XSIV4S Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Glocks4Freedom said: 11th grade - we're spinning our wheels! I did just fine in 11th grade. Entropy doesn't apply to fossil based fuel because it is a "consumable" not a perpetual motion machine and while it requires a great deal of energy for refining and delivery the fuel density outweighs the costs. My question was simple enough and I don't think it was covered in 11th grade science. Edited July 12, 2018 by XSIV4S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigobsessed Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 3 minutes ago, Rabbi said: Sure. If you need the hydrogen. However it would be more efficient to directly use the solar energy. Again, as you add steps, you increase entropy. We kin directly use it to supplement the hydrogen power with a side of windmill power!? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glocks4Freedom Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 6 minutes ago, XSIV4S said: Entropy doesn't apply to fossil based fuel because it is a "consumable" not a perpetual motion machine and while it requires a great deal of energy for refining and delivery the fuel density outweighs the costs. 1 As a true Physicist, feel free to prove your theory, through experiment. Looking for an answer in TBS is pretentious. We're waiting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XSIV4S Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 (edited) My goal was to ask a succesful engineer a question about energy density, since he had brought it up. What I got was an answer from him and not one, but two insults from you. Thanks for the input keyboard commando. Edited July 12, 2018 by XSIV4S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Rabbi Posted July 12, 2018 Administrators Share Posted July 12, 2018 22 minutes ago, XSIV4S said: I did just fine in 11th grade. Entropy doesn't apply to fossil based fuel because it is a "consumable" not a perpetual motion machine and while it requires a great deal of energy for refining and delivery the fuel density outweighs the costs. My question was simple enough and I don't think it was covered in 11th grade science. Just for the record, entropy always applies. As you consume a given amount of “consumable” Which is just, in part,the process of changing states, entropy is taking place. If you take a drop of oil and set it on fire, entropy is there. It is always there. As you complicate the process, such as using mechanical means to harness the fire from the drop of oil, entropy is there as well. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glocks4Freedom Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 7 minutes ago, XSIV4S said: My goal was to ask a succesful engineer a question about energy density, since he had brought it up. Sorry, I thought you were just trolling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XSIV4S Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Glocks4Freedom said: Sorry, I thought you were just trolling. No problem, I was truly curious. 10 minutes ago, Rabbi said: Just for the record, entropy always applies. As you consume a given amount of “consumable” Which is just, in part,the process of changing states, entropy is taking place. If you take a drop of oil and set it on fire, entropy is there. It is always there. As you complicate the process, such as using mechanical means to harness the fire from the drop of oil, entropy is there as well. I fully agree with you and understand it to a point. There will be a point where fossil fuels will not be available in their natural state. I've seen studies where they use rapid growing weeds that grow in channels along the coast and also happen to help eliminate heavy metals and they harvest these to produce gas (Methane I think) and there may come a time when alternative means are needed to supply the various fuels we use. I figure there has to be a go/no go point where something's energy density is not worth the trouble due to so little return after production costs. Edited July 12, 2018 by XSIV4S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
janice6 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 (edited) Fossil fuels: Methane clathrate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methane_clathrate Excerpts on Methane reserves. "....The sedimentary methane hydrate reservoir probably contains 2–10 times the currently known reserves of conventional natural gas, as of 2013…." "...Oceanic deposits seem to be widespread in the continental shelf and can occur within the sediments at depth or close to the sediment-water interface. They may cap even larger deposits of gaseous methane...." "...Recent estimates constrained by direct sampling suggest the global inventory occupies between 1×1015and 5×1015 m3 (0.24 to 1.2 million cubic miles). This estimate, corresponding to 500–2500 gigatonnes carbon (Gt C), is smaller than the 5000 Gt C estimated for all other geo-organic fuel reserves but substantially larger than the ~230 Gt C estimated for other natural gas sources. The permafrost reservoir has been estimated at about 400 Gt C in the Arctic, but no estimates have been made of possible Antarctic reservoirs. These are large amounts..." "...Economic deposits of hydrate are termed Natural Gas Hydrate (NGH) and are unique in that they store 164 m3 of methane, 0.8 m3 water in 1 m3 hydrate.[27] Most NGH is found beneath the seafloor (95%) where it exists in thermodynamic equilibrium. The sedimentary methane hydrate reservoir probably contains 2–10 times the currently known reserves of conventional natural gas, as of 2013...." Edited July 12, 2018 by janice6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crockett Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 1 hour ago, XSIV4S said: hang gliders have recorded flights of over 600 miles and can stay up all day with good winds and updrafts. Add the smallest of motors and batteries and it would be up significantly longer. Not a 1 to 1 comparison with an automobile. It wasn't a comparison, I just made a point that both do exist and work, obviously dependable on sunlight and intensity, and only on such. There are means and technologies that would even make a TDI with 84 MPG - which was basically killed by the EPA - look like a diesel guzzler, but those developments are not welcomed yet, let alone in the US. VW came out in Europe with a 260 mpg - 310 mpg car called the XL 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XSIV4S Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 9 minutes ago, crockett said: It wasn't a comparison, I just made a point that both do exist and work, obviously dependable on sunlight and intensity, and only on such. There are means and technologies that would even make a TDI with 84 MPG - which was basically killed by the EPA - look like a diesel guzzler, but those developments are not welcomed yet, let alone in the US. VW came out in Europe with a 260 mpg - 310 mpg car called the XL 1. Thanks and understood. For about 6 years I was a national trainer in the automotive field and had to do a lot more research than I wanted to on solar charging for battery maintenance set-ups. It has a nitch (remote low power use applications) but just isn't very practical for much else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crockett Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 (edited) On 7/12/2018 at 4:14 PM, XSIV4S said: Thanks and understood. For about 6 years I was a national trainer in the automotive field and had to do a lot more research than I wanted to on solar charging for battery maintenance set-ups. It has a nitch (remote low power use applications) but just isn't very practical for much else. . Edited January 26, 2019 by crockett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XSIV4S Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 1 minute ago, crockett said: I worked in the industry as well, back in the 90s in R&D for Benz on the C and SL class. That reminds me of the Phaeton I owned back in Germany. It had solar cells build into the sunroof in order to exchange the cabin air with fresh air which dropped the temperature considerably when the car was parked in sun light. That was back in 2006. Car was years ahead in many aspects but never gain real traction because people kept buying Benz and BMW. The W12 engine was the most linear and smooth engine in its class. Yeah Mazda 929 was doing that for awhile. It was a damned expensive sunroof to replace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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