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Virginia Deputy Sues Sig Sauer


KY_Moose
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Since the incident, LCSO has changed out all P320 guns with the upgraded model, LCSO Media Relations Manager Kraig Troxell said.

What this should read is, since the incident, all guns were replaced with a different manufacturer, and Sig has since been banned for use on or off duty. 

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Yeah, I declare BS. This is no different than all the other LEO claims that their sidearm (Glock, M&P, etc.) just magically fired with no user error or negligence of any kind. Of course 99.9999999% or more of the time there was user error and negligence. Guns do not simply "go off" just because without anyone or anything touching the trigger without a substantial defect in that specific gun which can easily be found and replicated under controlled conditions. Like the drop issue the P320 had, which resulted in one valid lawsuit, and a voluntary recall. Of course the vast majority of these lawsuits fail, as will this one, because they aren't able to demonstrate a defect and it will objectively come down to user error. Sig has had some well deserved negative press lately and now someone is trying to take advantage of it.

Plus she was using that $2 crap holster that comes with Sig!? She should be suing whoever approved that for LEO use and herself for being so ignorant as to think that was a safe holster to keep a loaded and chambered pistol in while she fuddled around with it.

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2 hours ago, mlk18 said:

Of course 99.9999999% or more of the time there was user error and negligence. 

Quoting what quantitative source for the above number?  

The Loundon County news article does not mention what holster, brand, or model she was using. Your assignment of fault under assumption is a failure of logic. 

The US Army realizes there is a problem, as well as Dallas PD, Stamford PD [another officer bringing a negligent tort action against SiG], and other professional end-users. There are videos showing that the mass of the trigger, through inertia, is causing the pistol to fire when it is dropped onto a suitably unyielding surface, although no independent testing agency has undertaken scientifically controlled and method testing that is known to the public at this point. 

SiG themselves undertook a "voluntary upgrade", but has not recalled the P320. A recall is a very specific act under tort law and SIG has not met that definition. 

Many handguns may/will fire when dropped - Colt's SAA revolver, Colt's Government Model pistol w/o Swartz safety or the Series 80 firing pin safety, Ruger Blackhawk revolvers made prior to the New Model variant, various M1911/A1 pattern pistols made to original specifications, and others as well. These firearms and their production numbers alone directly dispute your statistical claim. 

 

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1 hour ago, blueiron said:

Many handguns may/will fire when dropped - Colt's SAA revolver, Colt's Government Model pistol w/o Swartz safety or the Series 80 firing pin safety, Ruger Blackhawk revolvers made prior to the New Model variant, various M1911/A1 pattern pistols made to original specifications, and others as well. These firearms and their production numbers alone directly dispute your statistical claim.

Other than the P320, none of which are currently marketed to modern law enforcement or military organizations. Also, 1911s with titanium firing pins and having firing pin springs are reasonable drop safe. In fact, the follow up video from Omaha Outdoors did drop a Springfield 1911 (no FPS) and it did not fire.

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1 minute ago, Bucky said:

Other than the P320, none of which are currently marketed to modern law enforcement or military organizations. Also, 1911s with titanium firing pins and having firing pin springs are reasonable drop safe. In fact, the follow up video from Omaha Outdoors did drop a Springfield 1911 (no FPS) and it did not fire.

Jump to 3:30 for the 1911 drop test.

 

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I would thread the belt through an EMPTY duty holster, holster the pistol with the rig off and then put the rig on but that’s just me. There’s a dead cat on the line somewhere here. She’s lawyered up.  

Edited by Will Beararms
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1 hour ago, FiremanMike said:

I'm not one of those guys who's super attached to my guns.. they're tools.. but with that said, I couldn't imagine just tossing my guns around on concrete like that!

 

I personally appreciate the drop tests.  Without them SIG would never have addressed the issue.

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6 hours ago, blueiron said:

Quoting what quantitative source for the above number?  

The Loundon County news article does not mention what holster, brand, or model she was using. Your assignment of fault under assumption is a failure of logic. 

The US Army realizes there is a problem, as well as Dallas PD, Stamford PD [another officer bringing a negligent tort action against SiG], and other professional end-users. There are videos showing that the mass of the trigger, through inertia, is causing the pistol to fire when it is dropped onto a suitably unyielding surface, although no independent testing agency has undertaken scientifically controlled and method testing that is known to the public at this point. 

SiG themselves undertook a "voluntary upgrade", but has not recalled the P320. A recall is a very specific act under tort law and SIG has not met that definition. 

Many handguns may/will fire when dropped - Colt's SAA revolver, Colt's Government Model pistol w/o Swartz safety or the Series 80 firing pin safety, Ruger Blackhawk revolvers made prior to the New Model variant, various M1911/A1 pattern pistols made to original specifications, and others as well. These firearms and their production numbers alone directly dispute your statistical claim. 

 

Oh great a lawyer. Read the article. Then read it again. She didn't drop the gun counselor, she put a loaded gun with a round in the chamber into a holster and then decided to feed a belt through it. OBVIOUSLY with the muzzle pointing at her leg. I am not sure how to quantify common sense to you or the 4 rules of firearms safety, but it's pretty obvious that user error put the hole in her leg. If she worked for me she would be out of job. Of course we actually train our people and we don't issue out junk holsters or gear.

Edited by mlk18
Grammar
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In February, Vadnais arrived at the Northern Virginia Criminal Justice Academy for a general instructor course. The academy does not allow live rounds and weapons inside the facility, so the deputy began stripping off the firarm. As Vadnais began feeding her belt through the first tooth of the holster, her P320 fired one round and hit her right thigh, shattering her femur, according to court documents.

At no point did Vadnais touch the trigger, and the gun was inside and covered by the Sig-manufactured holster, the documents state.

The holster in question is a Sig-manufactured holster?  Or at least Sig endorsed/approved/labeled holster?  

Was the holster/gun being put back on a duty belt or an off-duty belt?  Hard to accept the argument that to be safe, a holster (with gun in it) being threaded back on a belt must first remove the gun.  This requires leaving a loaded gun exposed and sitting somewhere.  Then reholstering the gun.       

 

Edited by PATCHMAN
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  • 1 year later...
On 7/6/2018 at 2:24 PM, Will Beararms said:

I would thread the belt through an EMPTY duty holster, holster the pistol with the rig off and then put the rig on but that’s just me. There’s a dead cat on the line somewhere here. She’s lawyered up.  

I find that it's easier to clip the holster to the belt already in the pants ( my holster has belt clips rather than loops) and then I put the gun in the holster, after I have the pants and holster on, with the belt buckled. 

I take my pistol out of the holster first and then remove the holster, also because of the ungainly weight with the pistol in the holster.

My reasoning is that I like carrying full size pistols (present carry is G41) and with the gun in the holster and the magazine installed, it's heavy and ungainly to then put the pants on while fighting the weight of the loaded pistol.

I found the same situation when carrying the 4" .357 Magnum.

Your mileage may vary.

Edited by janice6
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13 hours ago, DWARREN123 said:

We do not have all the info involved and there may be a video also.

Wait and see before judging is my thought

With this being a necro thread, are you referring to the OP story or what the newbie posted today?

 

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On 7/6/2018 at 10:03 AM, mlk18 said:

Yeah, I declare BS. This is no different than all the other LEO claims that their sidearm (Glock, M&P, etc.) just magically fired with no user error or negligence of any kind. Of course 99.9999999% or more of the time there was user error and negligence. Guns do not simply "go off" just because without anyone or anything touching the trigger without a substantial defect in that specific gun which can easily be found and replicated under controlled conditions. Like the drop issue the P320 had, which resulted in one valid lawsuit, and a voluntary recall. Of course the vast majority of these lawsuits fail, as will this one, because they aren't able to demonstrate a defect and it will objectively come down to user error. Sig has had some well deserved negative press lately and now someone is trying to take advantage of it.

Plus she was using that $2 crap holster that comes with Sig!? She should be suing whoever approved that for LEO use and herself for being so ignorant as to think that was a safe holster to keep a loaded and chambered pistol in while she fuddled around with it.

I'm struggling with this a little bit.

If Sig includes the holster with the gun or sells it for the gun, it should be a safe holster to use.  One could say it should be the MOST safe holster to use, because it's the one designed for the gun by the maker of the gun or with their input.

And I would think unholstering and holstering would be much more dangerous and likely to result in a ND, than putting a holstered weapon on a belt.  I do know NDs happen that way.  Finger in the wrong place, shirt tail gets in the holster and hits the trigger, some other foreign object gets in there - all kinds of stuff.  

I assume the holster was this one:

hol-320-owb-ambi-blk-rear.jpg

I don't see how a belt being threaded through it the loops would hit the trigger.  Which means the gun went bang when the trigger wasn't pulled.  And that - on a weapon meant to be carried as a duty weapon with a loaded chamber, is what we call a damn PROBLEM.  

I have to agree with the poster above - I'd replace all of the weapons with another type and render the P320 unfit for carry duty until I was convinced they were safe.  Why risk it?  Plenty of fine weapons out there that can be issued - Beretta, Glock, Smith and Wesson, H&K.......

She may have made a mistake and the weapon may have been pointed in a bad direction, but that does not absolve Sig of responsibility for making a defective weapon.

Edited by SC Tiger
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On 9/22/2019 at 10:13 AM, Kenobi said:

 

While not Sig, there was a huge recall.  Just posting to show it does happen.  Flamesuit on.  Deflectors at maximum. 

I used to believe guns do not ever "go off."

I've modified it to be "well designed, manufactured, and maintained guns do not ever go off."  Not all guns are well designed, manufactured. or maintained.  There is some real junk out there.

Remington has had a similar issue.  Difference with Remington is, it being a bolt action, there is less likelihood that it will be carried chamber loaded.  Ruger had it too and did a recall I believe.  Ruger even did a voluntary recall of their Blackhawk line to upgrade them to current design, even though anyone with half a brain knew not to carry them with a loaded chamber under the hammer.

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On 7/6/2018 at 2:52 PM, Bucky said:

Jump to 3:30 for the 1911 drop test.

 

Yeah, like I can take the word of a guy wearing shorts and flip flops! :anim_lol:

 

Seriously though - I would have a serious hard time dropping that many guns.

I believe Springfield uses a 9mm-spec firing pin (or another lightweight one) because the reduced mass allows it to pass the drop test.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On ‎7‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 7:03 AM, mlk18 said:

Yeah, I declare BS. This is no different than all the other LEO claims that their sidearm (Glock, M&P, etc.) just magically fired with no user error or negligence of any kind. Of course 99.9999999% or more of the time there was user error and negligence. Guns do not simply "go off" just because without anyone or anything touching the trigger without a substantial defect in that specific gun which can easily be found and replicated under controlled conditions. Like the drop issue the P320 had, which resulted in one valid lawsuit, and a voluntary recall. Of course the vast majority of these lawsuits fail, as will this one, because they aren't able to demonstrate a defect and it will objectively come down to user error. Sig has had some well deserved negative press lately and now someone is trying to take advantage of it.

Plus she was using that $2 crap holster that comes with Sig!? She should be suing whoever approved that for LEO use and herself for being so ignorant as to think that was a safe holster to keep a loaded and chambered pistol in while she fuddled around with it.

Does anyone else who actually read the article see any evidence of user error?  If I read the article right, she was attempting to unload and then re-holster? the gun when it "Went Off". It does not sound like she was following proper procedure for making a gun safe by dropping the mag, clearing the chamber, and locking the  slide back on an empty chamber to verify that it was clear.

Instead the article describes this:

"The academy does not allow live rounds and weapons inside the facility, so the deputy began stripping off the firearm. As Vadnais began feeding her belt through the first tooth of the holster, her P320 fired one round and hit her right thigh, shattering her femur, according to court documents."

Edited by Borg warner
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