Conscription aka “The Draft”

[railfancwb]

Is the United States better off or worse off for having ended the actual draft in 1973? (Registration for the draft is still required for males 18 and older.)

Mr Heinlein, who had a military background, had a strong opinion on the matter.

I also think there are prices too high to pay to save the United States. Conscription is one of them. Conscription is slavery, and I don't think that any people or nation has a right to save itself at the price of slavery for anyone, no matter what name it is called. We have had the draft for twenty years now; I think this is shameful. If a country can't save itself through the volunteer service of its own free people, then I say: Let the damned thing go down the drain!

Heinlein Robert

 

Conscription, if done fairly, created some forced mixing and mingling of groups which otherwise might have had no occasion to interact. Was this good, bad, or irrelevant?

[Maser]

Better off.  We need soldiers who actually wanna fight.  Not those who are forced to by federal law. 

[DAKA]

A few years of military service for everyone would not be a bad thing...there is something everyone can do..not necessarily carry a weapon

[tous]

Those of us of a certain age will remember the sense of anxiety and resignation as high school graduation approached when asked, What do you want to do with the rest of your life? and the only answer was, Before or after I get sent to Vietnam?

Having that uncertainty hanging over you was not fun.

We had four choices:  college deferment, enlist in a 'safe' service such as the Navy or Air Force, ROTC (Run Off To Canada,) take your chances with the draft.

 

Cheers to those that were drafted back then and served with honor. 

 

 

[Maser]

47 minutes ago, DAKA said:

A few years of military service for everyone would not be a bad thing...there is something everyone can do..not necessarily carry a weapon

 

This is about the draft.  You know, people who don't wanna be soldiers being forced to fight another country's war.  As far as mandatory military basic training at the age of 18 goes, I'm all for that.  The new generation of zoomers is way more cocky than my fellow millennials (which is hard to believe) and I think they could use a bit of discipline USMC PT style. 

[railfancwb]

Heinlein had more to say about service in “Starship Troopers”. However many have said that the title is about all the movie actually used from his book. Cutting to the chase, one could not vote absent a period of service to the government. Not necessarily military service, but service. One became eligible to vote only after completing the service. 

[Borg warner]

2 hours ago, railfancwb said:

Is the United States better off or worse off for having ended the actual draft in 1973? (Registration for the draft is still required for males 18 and older.)

Mr Heinlein, who had a military background, had a strong opinion on the matter.

I also think there are prices too high to pay to save the United States. Conscription is one of them. Conscription is slavery, and I don't think that any people or nation has a right to save itself at the price of slavery for anyone, no matter what name it is called. We have had the draft for twenty years now; I think this is shameful. If a country can't save itself through the volunteer service of its own free people, then I say: Let the damned thing go down the drain!

Heinlein Robert

 

Conscription, if done fairly, created some forced mixing and mingling of groups which otherwise might have had no occasion to interact. Was this good, bad, or irrelevant?

There are some advantages to the draft that I saw back in 1966-69 when the draft was in full swing. I graduated high school in 66 and went to college for a couple of years and in the meantime thought about enlisting in either the Navy or the Air Force and talked to some recruiters but never joined up and then I got drafted and when I went for my induction physical and  I had never had blood taken from me before and after they drew my blood the concrete floor came up and hit me Upside the head really hard and knocked me unconscious and they had to take me to an Navy hospital and examine me for a concussion, and in the meantime they had to rescedule me for another draft physicalk but said they'd notify me so in the meantime I went back to the Air Force recruiter and joined up.

What I think is good about compulsory military service is that overall, military service is good for young men in particular and builds character and what I saw was a lot of guys who didn't especially support the war effort, changed their attitudes once they became a part of it and started taking their jobs more seriously. Compulsory  military service also allows the military command  structure to weed out and identify the Fk-ups, althoough these days even if we know who the Fk-ups are, we don't incarcerate them, institutionalize them, or even arrest them anymore, but that needs to change.

What I liked about being in the military when there was a draft is that you serve with more people from a broader cross section of society and learn more about the makeup of your country and that instilled in me a great love for my country and my fellow countrymen which is something that  too few people have today.

[Huaco Kid]

1 hour ago, Maser said:

 and I think they could use a bit of discipline USMC PT style. 

[janice6]

4 hours ago, tous said:

Those of us of a certain age will remember the sense of anxiety and resignation as high school graduation approached when asked, What do you want to do with the rest of your life? and the only answer was, Before or after I get sent to Vietnam?

Having that uncertainty hanging over you was not fun.

We had four choices:  college deferment, enlist in a 'safe' service such as the Navy or Air Force, ROTC (Run Off To Canada,) take your chances with the draft.

 

Cheers to those that were drafted back then and served with honor. 

 

 

During my year before graduation High School, I was faced with the knowledge that at graduation I would be drafted.  It was the way things were back then.  I decided to look into the rules of the military and see if I could work them for my advantage.  I knew what and where my interest lie and I damned well was going to make the military give me what I wanted.

I went to the local Naval Reserve station at the local airport and talked with the Chief that was the reserve station representative.  I told him honestly, what my desire was in service and that I wanted a commitment at enlistment that was cast in concrete. 

He was a great help and checked the regulations to find that with my specific class Amateur Radio License, the regulations stated that I would enlist at the rate of E3 with a Radioman's designation.  He went on to tell me that at that time, a Radioman and Electronics Technician both were considered critical rates since there were insufficient numbers of them for the available ships.  International law stated that without a qualified Radioman, the ship could not go to sea!  So this sealed my rate of interest.

That Summer I went to the reserve station daily utilizing their code practice equipment till I could get the grade of Amateur license that would guarantee my the rate I wanted.  I got the License necessary and promptly enlisted in the Naval Reserve at that station.  

As soon as I was sworn into the reserve, I was given complete control over the communications from that station to the Great Lakes command that my station reported to.  It was fun to say the least.  I walked into the station, was sworn in, given the keys to the radio station in another building, and went to my "radios".

Amateur Radio was initiated by the US government to actually train radio operators for the military and thusly, I knew the radio procedures, message handling procedures, classification of messages and all the sundry details that the military required of their radio operators.

Because of my previous knowledge of electronics and having built many pieces of equipment, I understood the operation and function of all their equipment at their radio station the day I walked into it.  So my first night I fired up all the gear and checked into the network to report our reserve station activity and necessary protocol.

My first night I finished my work an hour before the others would go home.  When I reported to the station Captain I was finished with my assignment that night he told me to take off.  After that, I pretty much was on my own each meeting date.  I didn't let them down so they gave me quite a bit of leeway regarding "procedures".  I learned how to "get along in a highly regimented society" and felt comfortable with my decision to join the Navy.

My first Summer they tried to send me to "Boot Camp" but my rate was too high to allow this, so they sent me to Radio School for two weeks to learn what I already knew.  My two weeks in San Diego Radio School was like a vacation to me.  I was scheduled to go a few days after graduating high school but the radio school classes started a day or two later.

Since they wanted me to start at radio school on time, they had no choice on my orders to report to San Diego and had to send me there on a Champaign Flight with Western Airlines to get me there on time.  When I sat down next to the galley on the plane, each time a stewardess left the galley with a new bottle of Champaign, they fill my glass before anyone else, I suppose it was that I looked so young and was in uniform.  

When I got to Los Angeles  I was pretty well buzzed.  The stews got a kick out of liquoring me up.  After take-off I told them I wasn't 18 yet but the said there were no laws pertaining to drinking while we were in the air.  I had a hell of a fun trip. 

Got to Los Angeles and caught a commuter flight to San Diego, it was a tiny rattletrap of an airplane.  The stewardess sat with me in the back.  When we took off the plane rattled and banged like it was falling apart.  I jokingly aske the stewardess if this was normal/ and she looked at me worriedly and said, "I don't know.  this is my first flight!".  I had a great time again, talking with her till we landed.

I had a wonderful time in the Navy.  I found out the rules and that was all I needed to do things my way.  I also gave the Captain of my ship an opportunity to stand out in the Squadron and he let me do what I wanted after that.  As the only Radioman on my ship, the ship couldn't go to sea without me.  My punishment (if it came to that) was limited, as a result.  My service is a long list of how I did what I wanted and on my terms.  I had complete autonomy in the radio shack on my ship and all I had to do was make the Captain look good to his peers.  And, I did.

Just because a society is highly regimented doesn't mean you are restricted in your activity.  Learn the rules and you can do whatever you want.  This is good advice anywhere you wind up.   I would recommend Military Service to anyone.  It was like a two year vacation to me.  I read Greek Fairy Tales as a child, and some ancient history after that. I loved what I did and I did it to the best of my ability.

The Navy sent me to all the places I had read about in the ancient world.  I hit almost every country around the Mediterranean Sea.  It was wonderful to look over the harbor of Rhodes Greece where the Colossus stood with his legs spanning the harbor.  I enjoyed Athens, Greece the most, but Malta, Crete (the Labyrinth and Minotaur) and Gibraltar ( one of the pillars of Hercules The entrance to the world) were exciting.  Naples, Italy...  All the places I read about in ancient history.

MY point here is:  Do your preliminary investigation before committing, and make sure you know the rules, and you can't believe the freedom you can have to do as you like.

[Pogey Bait]

 

I don't think the draft will ever come back.  Seems you don't need the number of warm bodies that were required in the past.  And with AI looming, my guess is

many dangerous combat jobs will be handled by the produced.  Not the live born.

 

[janice6]

1 hour ago, Pogey Bait said:

 

I don't think the draft will ever come back.  Seems you don't need the number of warm bodies that were required in the past.  And with AI looming, my guess is

many dangerous combat jobs will be handled by the produced.  Not the live born.

 

I agree with misgivings.  AI has no compassion and no soul.  I pity those whose lives depend on the largess of AI.  AI in warfare will be like WWI Where the aristocracy ran the war without regard to the human life involved.  AI will bring us the Carnage of past history...........

I once read a quote from a base commander in the Korean War.  He was asked about his command's high casualty rate.  He said that "We have to show the enemy that we have as little disregard for human life as they do!".  This is horrible.

[Fog]

Draft is morally wrong unless the enemy is invading our homeland, then it lasts only for defense and not beyond.

[tous]

If an enemy is invading your homeland, you really don't have the time or resources for a formal draft.

Defense then falls to local or regional militias, that, like most other countries facing the circumstance, institute their own brand of conscription.

One generally has two choices: join the militia and fight or refuse to join the militia and die on the spot.

[tous]

Again, for those of us of a certain age, recall that our draft cards required, in bold print, that the card be kept on us at all times

Yes, you could go to jail for failure to produce your papers on demand.

So, I went to my local draft board, like most draft boards, staffed by crabby old men who declared every eighteen-year-old a dirty hippie, and asked if I should keep my draft card in a plastic bag around my neck when I showered, lest my bathroom be raided .

None of them laughed.

I got to annoy crabby old men.

Made my day.

 

[tous]

4 hours ago, janice6 said:

the regulations stated that I would enlist at the rate of E3 with a Radioman's designation. 

For the non-Navy folk, rate  is your rank, rating is your job (like an MOS: Military Occupational Specialty) in other services.

Radioman was his job, or rating.

E-3 was his rate.

E-3 is the highest rate before non-commissioned officer rates.  From E1 to E3, you are considered an apprentice, learning your job, attending schools.

An E-4 to E-6 is a petty officer -- like a sergeant in other services.

E-7 to E-9 is a Chief Petty Officer, like a senior sergeant.

You occupy a slot on what is known as the TOE, Table of Organization and Equipment and that slot is called a billet.

A TOE for, say, a seagoing vessel would list n number of ensigns and their jobs (billets), n number of lieutenants, junior grade and their billets, n number of lieutenants and their billets, etc, how many boatswains (bosuns - responsible for the condition of the ship and operations on the deck,) how many coxswains (responsible for navigation,)  how many yeomen (clerks), machinist mates (maintain and repair the moving parts,) etc.  all the way to captain of the ship.  The TOE also lists the equipment assigned to the ship.

 

The Navy does not call enlisted personnel enlisted personnel.

They're called ratings or rates or just seamen or sailors.

Yes, it can be confusing, but we had the best chow of any service.

And all the bug juice we could drink.

 

 

 

[Borg warner]

23 hours ago, tous said:

Those of us of a certain age will remember the sense of anxiety and resignation as high school graduation approached when asked, What do you want to do with the rest of your life? and the only answer was, Before or after I get sent to Vietnam?

Having that uncertainty hanging over you was not fun.

We had four choices:  college deferment, enlist in a 'safe' service such as the Navy or Air Force, ROTC (Run Off To Canada,) take your chances with the draft.

 

Cheers to those that were drafted back then and served with honor. 

 

 

The other thing about the Vietnam war was that many of us were not necessarily anti-war or didn't want to serve our country, but didn't want to be cannon fodder in a war fought by politicians and being fought to a stalemate, instead of  being fought by Generals who would fight to secure victory. I had many friends at the time who either figured out ways to get out of the draft, or, once drafted, found non-combat assignments. One guy I knew was a good rifle shot and tried out for and became part of the Army Marksmanship exhibition team and another guy became a General's aid. But I did have a good friend who joined the Navy the same time I joined the Air Force and first was in Hawaii but then ended up in the Brown water Navy in Viet Nam where he was in combat and wounded and exposed to Agent Orange which eventually killed him when he was in his early 60's.

[pipedreams]

14 hours ago, tous said:

For the non-Navy folk, rate  is your rank, rating is your job (like an MOS: Military Occupational Specialty) in other services.

Radioman was his job, or rating.

E-3 was his rate.

E-3 is the highest rate before non-commissioned officer rates.  From E1 to E3, you are considered an apprentice, learning your job, attending schools.

An E-4 to E-6 is a petty officer -- like a sergeant in other services.

E-7 to E-9 is a Chief Petty Officer, like a senior sergeant.

You occupy a slot on what is known as the TOE, Table of Organization and Equipment and that slot is called a billet.

A TOE for, say, a seagoing vessel would list n number of ensigns and their jobs (billets), n number of lieutenants, junior grade and their billets, n number of lieutenants and their billets, etc, how many boatswains (bosuns - responsible for the condition of the ship and operations on the deck,) how many coxswains (responsible for navigation,)  how many yeomen (clerks), machinist mates (maintain and repair the moving parts,) etc.  all the way to captain of the ship.  The TOE also lists the equipment assigned to the ship.

The Navy does not call enlisted personnel enlisted personnel.

They're called ratings or rates or just seamen or sailors.

Yes, it can be confusing, but we had the best chow of any service.

And all the bug juice we could drink.

Thanks for the good explanation, Naval Officer rating is another one that is difficult to compare.  I always guessed a Lt. Commander and Lt. Colonel must be comparable.  How far off am I?

[tous]

A Lieutenant Commander is O-4, the same as a Major in the Army or Marines.

A Lieutenant Colonel is O-5, the same as a Commander in the Navy.

Don't ask about the rank of Commodore. 

The highest rank in the Navy is O-10, 4-star Admiral.

The have been 5-star Admirals during war, just as there have been 5-star Army Generals.

 

[tous]

5 hours ago, Borg warner said:

The other thing about the Vietnam war was that many of us were not necessarily anti-war or didn't want to serve our country, but didn't want to be cannon fodder in a war fought by politicians and being fought to a stalemate, instead of  being fought by Generals who would fight to secure victory. I had many friends at the time who either figured out ways to get out of the draft, or, once drafted, found non-combat assignments. One guy I knew was a good rifle shot and tried out for and became part of the Army Marksmanship exhibition team and another guy became a General's aid. But I did have a good friend who joined the Navy the same time I joined the Air Force and first was in Hawaii but then ended up in the Brown water Navy in Viet Nam where he was in combat and wounded and exposed to Agent Orange which eventually killed him when he was in his early 60's.

By the time I graduated from high school (1968) older class mates and friends were returning from service in Vietnam and telling us how truly FUBAR it was and to have nothing to do with it if we could avoid it.

These weren't hippies or cowards, they were gung ho to get to the war a year or two before.

South Vietnam was a dictatorship and the government was corrupt at every level. 

The Army of the Republic of Vietnam (ARVN) was even more corrupt.  There really was no national armed forces, only militias controlled by warlords connected to the government that required the US to pay them to use their soldiers.  I am certain that they were being paid by the communist  North Vietnamese as well.  Note well that the warlords, the oligarchs  and the government officials all made it out of the country in 1975 with their planeloads of gold.

Saigon and the other major cities were horrible.  The citizens existed for one reason: to separate GIs from their money.  Every other business was a bar or whorehouse -- you could buy anything you wanted in Saigon, especially heroin.  Or a young girl, or boy, if you were that evil.

I only went to Saigon twice, Da Nang once.

Seeing all of the poor people, from the virtual slaves working in the big cities to the farmers and villagers broke my heart.

They just wanted to be left alone, raise their children, grow their crops, have a hard but happy life and both sides, US and communist, exploited them, drove them into destitution and often, simply killed them.

 

But ....

We weren't asked for our opinion of the politics.

We went and served because we said we would, we made a promise and we kept it.

We served from honor with honor, not for the greedy politicians or the clueless commanders; but for the lad next to you walking through the jungle, the lad standing watch with you, the lad that made sure that your aircraft was in perfect condition when you climbed into the cockpit.

 

Sorry.  I get carried away sometimes. 

 

[Borg warner]

22 minutes ago, tous said:

By the time I graduated from high school (1968) older class mates and friends were returning from service in Vietnam and telling us how truly FUBAR it was and to have nothing to do with it if we could avoid it.

These weren't hippies or cowards, they were gung ho to get to the war a year or two before.

South Vietnam was a dictatorship and the government was corrupt at every level. 

The Army of the Republic of Vietnam (ARVN) was even more corrupt.  There really was no national armed forces, only militias controlled by warlords connected to the government that required the US to pay them to use their soldiers.  I am certain that they were being paid by the communist  North Vietnamese as well.  Note well that the warlords, the oligarchs  and the government officials all made it out of the country in 1975 with their planeloads of gold.

Saigon and the other major cities were horrible.  The citizens existed for one reason: to separate GIs from their money.  Every other business was a bar or whorehouse -- you could buy anything you wanted in Saigon, especially heroin.  Or a young girl, or boy, if you were that evil.

I only went to Saigon twice, Da Nang once.

Seeing all of the poor people, from the virtual slaves working in the big cities to the farmers and villagers broke my heart.

They just wanted to be left alone, raise their children, grow their crops, have a hard but happy life and both sides, US and communist, exploited them, drove them into destitution and often, simply killed them.

 

But ....

We weren't asked for our opinion of the politics.

We went and served because we said we would, we made a promise and we kept it.

We served from honor with honor, not for the greedy politicians or the clueless commanders; but for the lad next to you walking through the jungle, the lad standing watch with you, the lad that made sure that your aircraft was in perfect condition when you climbed into the cockpit.

 

Sorry.  I get carried away sometimes. 

 

Sorry.  I get carried away sometimes. 

Understand completely. No apology needed.

[gwalchmai]

13 hours ago, tous said:

Don't ask about the rank of Commodore. 

It's once, twice, three times a Rear Admiral, right? 

I think we "they" ought to go back to Commodore and Brigadier, and convert all the Air Force ranks to RAF equivalents. Space Force could use Imperial equivalents.  No one would ever know who to salute any more.

[tous]

A one-star admiral (Rear Admiral, lower half) is an O-7 and at times has been designated as Commodore.

A two-star (O-8) is also called Rear Admiral.

Admirals are flag officers, meaning that they command more than one ship and their commands can range from small task forces or task groups to fleets.

Admirals do not command individual ships -- that is the ship's captains job.

All one can conclude is that someone, at some time, thought it was all a good idea.

Some militarizes have brigadiers: a field grade officer that commands a brigade.

 

[janice6]

1 hour ago, tous said:

A one-star admiral (Rear Admiral, lower half) is an O-7 and at times has been designated as Commodore.

A two-star (O-8) is also called Rear Admiral.

Admirals are flag officers, meaning that they command more than one ship and their commands can range from small task forces or task groups to fleets.

Admirals do not command individual ships -- that is the ship's captains job.

All one can conclude is that someone, at some time, thought it was all a good idea.

Some militarizes have brigadiers: a filed grade officer that commands a brigade.

 

The Captain of my little Minesweeper was a Lt. Commander.  The story I got was that he was a Chief Radioman in his early career and through some activity in Korea, he wound up receiving Rank as a "battle field promotion".  His years resulted in his present rank of Lt. Commander.  He was in danger of being retired at his last rate since he wasn't commissioned by Congress.

I came in where he had been passed over twice for promotion (He was hungry as a shark for attention),  so when I offered to do "things" with the communications that would make him stand out, he was all for it.  I often reminded him that BuShips wouldn't approve of what I did, But he didn't care as long as he was noticed.

This need to be noticed allowed me to do things to the Radio equipment that would never pass inspection.  I had a great time while feeding his need for attention.

His best hour was when tied to the Sixth Fleet Communications Ship in Beirut harbor, along with the whole Sixth Fleet (admiral "cat" Brown). I passed the fleet position report to Washington D.C. directly when the Communications ship couldn't.  It was a funny story to me.  He got noticed when I also prompted a change in the Fleets Communications Protocol.  That time it was "touch and go".

[tous]

It is customary, or it was, to be promoted one rank upon retirement.

 

[railfancwb]

1 minute ago, tous said:

It is customary, or it was, to be promoted one rank upon retirement.

 

Nice pension boost