Jump to content

Logical Fallacies, or How To Convince Me Of Nothing (Except Your Ignorance)


Mrs.Cicero
 Share

Recommended Posts

I just had a 20 year old try to school me on why social workers should replace cops at calls where the, ah, "person of interest" is mentally ill.  Unfortunately, her "argument, " such as it was, started with a logical fallacy, and proceeded thru 3 more of them before I could stop myself from counting.  There was a total and complete lack of any statistical support for her opinion (not even any made up stats, and I cannot decide if that is good or bad at this point)... just drivel like "Cops approaching mentally ill people with their guns drawn is threatening to the mentally ill person."  (No info on how many cops actually EVER have to draw their guns in their ENTIRE CAREER, but who cares about facts?  Let's just throw social workers at the floridly psychotic 220# man armed with a machete, shall we?).  Followed by "Cops get no training on de-escalation," (apparently she took some teacher's word for that without checking the police academy curriculum, or even asking a cop). Then, then... she sent "articles" that were supposed to convince me how cops shoot crazy people.  Articles from WaPo, and the NYT, among other "news" sources.  As if a 2018 incident in which a cop shot some mentally ill dude and got charged with murder is going to convince me that all cops shoot all the mentally ill people they come in contact with, or something.  And then there were the two articles that suggested "solutions" to this supposed problem... without any evidence to support any idea that those solutions would result in better outcomes than we currently have... and frankly, a lot of common sense would argue that sending in the untrained, physically unfit, never been in a fight IN her life, much less FOR her life, social worker to convince Mr Machete to give up and go peacefully with the police... is going to result in a lot more injured and dead social workers, and cops who try to protect them, than it will save the FEW mentally ill people who get shot for trying to murder the police that have the bad luck to take the call involving the nutter that simply cannot be de-escalated.

This kid was actually homeschooled (unschooling style, if that matters to you) for a good deal of her education.  I am highly disappointed.  In my personal opinion, any schooling that results in students who have not learned how to argue without using logical fallacies... is a complete failure.  It leaves the student open to gross psychological manipulation in the form of the logical fallacies used against them (which they are unaware of and cannot identify and counteract) in arguments for/against any particular action or policy, and it also leaves the student unable to form a coherent argument that will actually convince anyone who is aware of the existence of logical fallacies and able to identify the ones they come into contact with.

 

WaPo.  I still cannot get over that she tried to use WaPo to support her argument.  Anecdotal, editorial shite I wouldn't use to line my birdcage for fear the stupid would infect the bird.

 

  • Like 5
  • Thanks 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The most violent situations i have ever responded to were involving people who were mentally ill, or on drugs, or both.

It can go from something simple to all hell breaking lose.

Have her go for a dozen ride-alongs.  That will change her mind.

 

Edited by Historian
  • Like 5
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

In GwalchmaiNation, in order to vote every citizen will have to pass a test in formal logic, a civics test at least equal to the Naturalization Exam, balance a checkbook, bake a cake, change a tire, sew on a button, build and start a campfire, and, oh hell, nobody could get in to GwalchmaiNation.

  • Like 6
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Mrs.Cicero said:

I just had a 20 year old try to school me on why social workers should replace cops at calls where the, ah, "person of interest" is mentally ill.  Unfortunately, her "argument, " such as it was, started with a logical fallacy, and proceeded thru 3 more of them before I could stop myself from counting.  There was a total and complete lack of any statistical support for her opinion (not even any made up stats, and I cannot decide if that is good or bad at this point)... just drivel like "Cops approaching mentally ill people with their guns drawn is threatening to the mentally ill person."  (No info on how many cops actually EVER have to draw their guns in their ENTIRE CAREER, but who cares about facts?  Let's just throw social workers at the floridly psychotic 220# man armed with a machete, shall we?).  Followed by "Cops get no training on de-escalation," (apparently she took some teacher's word for that without checking the police academy curriculum, or even asking a cop). Then, then... she sent "articles" that were supposed to convince me how cops shoot crazy people.  Articles from WaPo, and the NYT, among other "news" sources.  As if a 2018 incident in which a cop shot some mentally ill dude and got charged with murder is going to convince me that all cops shoot all the mentally ill people they come in contact with, or something.  And then there were the two articles that suggested "solutions" to this supposed problem... without any evidence to support any idea that those solutions would result in better outcomes than we currently have... and frankly, a lot of common sense would argue that sending in the untrained, physically unfit, never been in a fight IN her life, much less FOR her life, social worker to convince Mr Machete to give up and go peacefully with the police... is going to result in a lot more injured and dead social workers, and cops who try to protect them, than it will save the FEW mentally ill people who get shot for trying to murder the police that have the bad luck to take the call involving the nutter that simply cannot be de-escalated.

This kid was actually homeschooled (unschooling style, if that matters to you) for a good deal of her education.  I am highly disappointed.  In my personal opinion, any schooling that results in students who have not learned how to argue without using logical fallacies... is a complete failure.  It leaves the student open to gross psychological manipulation in the form of the logical fallacies used against them (which they are unaware of and cannot identify and counteract) in arguments for/against any particular action or policy, and it also leaves the student unable to form a coherent argument that will actually convince anyone who is aware of the existence of logical fallacies and able to identify the ones they come into contact with.

 

WaPo.  I still cannot get over that she tried to use WaPo to support her argument.  Anecdotal, editorial shite I wouldn't use to line my birdcage for fear the stupid would infect the bird.

 

:goodpost:

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Most, if not all, of these ideas on how to deal with criminals and mentally ill people seem to be based on the ability of those causing the incident to be capable of reasoning with the person intended to de-escalate the situation.

then when you point out that lacking an ability to reason is what brought on this situation, they will argue that all these people will respond to reason and a calm demeaner.

This same thought process is what developed European gulags and holes in the ground filled with people.  It should be compulsory for anyone that is advising on police tactics, be required to have "X" number of ride alongs (as pointed out above) to qualify them for consideration.

"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. " -Bertrand Russell

  • Like 7
Link to comment
Share on other sites

they Site no facts on why Law Enforcement Should`nt Respond to Mental Health calls, because there are no Facts that Argue that Law Enforcement Should`nt or that there's anyone who is better trained and Equipped or can respond nearly as fast and Efficiently..

a part of me thinks this is a great idea, it will force the Stand your Ground and Castle laws to be widespread and Strengthened for everyone.

but it Sucks and is Terrible the Toll it will take to get there.

people now are taught that Feelings are Fact and create Reality, right up until Reality Stabs them in the Face and Steals Their Wallet.

 

 

someone needs to Unplug Facebook and Twitter and watch these Idiots walk into walls.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

42 minutes ago, holyjohnson said:

they Site no facts on why Law Enforcement Should`nt Respond to Mental Health calls, because there are no Facts that Argue that Law Enforcement Should`nt or that there's anyone who is better trained and Equipped or can respond nearly as fast and Efficiently..

a part of me thinks this is a great idea, it will force the Stand your Ground and Castle laws to be widespread and Strengthened for everyone.

but it Sucks and is Terrible the Toll it will take to get there.

people now are taught that Feelings are Fact and create Reality, right up until Reality Stabs them in the Face and Steals Their Wallet.

 

 

someone needs to Unplug Facebook and Twitter and watch these Idiots walk into walls.

The idea seems wonderful, until the reality isn't!

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Historian said:

The most violent situations i have ever responded to were involving people who were mentally ill, or on drugs, or both.

It can go from something simple to all hell breaking lose.

Have her go for a dozen ride-alongs.  That will change her mind.

 

I actually suggested that.  Along with telling her politely that whoever told her cops get no training in de-escalation was incorrect... it took me 30 seconds to find the PA State Police Academy curriculum that includes that in Module 2 Part 6.  (I went there because of a conversation I had with a PA statie years ago about de-escalation, so I knew they had training).  She is a very caring, friendly person, but apparently has gone skipping off to community college completely unprepared for real world leftist bs, and without any knowledge of the manipulative uses of logical fallacies, and is now falling for everything her leftist profs put in front of her... and she obviously isn't "fact-checking" any of their bull.  I used it as an example for my kids in homeschool today.  It's sad, really.  I reminded my kids to check everything, including what I tell them, and to construct their own arguments without fallacious "reasoning" or I would be VERY DISAPPOINTED.  

  • Thanks 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Walt Longmire said:

Let them go for it........for a while. Won't be long before they realize the error in their ways. If they survive a few encounters.

What worries me is that when they try it and it doesn't work, they won't simply go back to the previous, better method, but they will come up with something even stupider, like sending two social wankers and a puppy.  I'd feel bad if the dog got hurt.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, gwalchmai said:

In GwalchmaiNation, in order to vote every citizen will have to pass a test in formal logic, a civics test at least equal to the Naturalization Exam, balance a checkbook, bake a cake, change a tire, sew on a button, build and start a campfire, and, oh hell, nobody could get in to GwalchmaiNation.

I would like to move there and apply for citizenship.  As long as the wood is dry for starting the campfire, I'm good.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, DWARREN123 said:

People who can not or never have always try to tell the doer's how to do things.

Not new but the stupid seems to be getting stronger in some.

I have a sister that's a poster child for that!

For most of her life she got along on her looks.  Then she got older and her looks faded, every personal failure was someone else's fault.  It's a long story but reflects exactly what you said above.

  • Sad 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

While we haven't tried it and I don't know anyone personally who has, unschooling has always seemed to me like a risky approach. My oldest loves learning more about whatever he can. He would do fine under that method.  My other kids need the discipline of a more structured approach. Classical Conversations has been a great homeschool system for us. (And it includes formal instruction in logic!)

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Maccabeus said:

While we haven't tried it and I don't know anyone personally who has, unschooling has always seemed to me like a risky approach. My oldest loves learning more about whatever he can. He would do fine under that method.  My other kids need the discipline of a more structured approach. Classical Conversations has been a great homeschool system for us. (And it includes formal instruction in logic!)

Yes.  My issue with unschooling is that kids don't know what they need to learn, and basing their entire education on only those things that they are interested in leads to giant holes in their knowledge base - which can result in exactly what I just ran into - and generally good kid who is so easily manipulated by emotional appeals that she will fall for anything you can make her feel sorry for.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
  • Sad 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, Mrs.Cicero said:

I actually suggested that.  Along with telling her politely that whoever told her cops get no training in de-escalation was incorrect... it took me 30 seconds to find the PA State Police Academy curriculum that includes that in Module 2 Part 6.  (I went there because of a conversation I had with a PA statie years ago about de-escalation, so I knew they had training).  She is a very caring, friendly person, but apparently has gone skipping off to community college completely unprepared for real world leftist bs, and without any knowledge of the manipulative uses of logical fallacies, and is now falling for everything her leftist profs put in front of her... and she obviously isn't "fact-checking" any of their bull.  I used it as an example for my kids in homeschool today.  It's sad, really.  I reminded my kids to check everything, including what I tell them, and to construct their own arguments without fallacious "reasoning" or I would be VERY DISAPPOINTED.  

Mrs. Cicero....i've been a use of force instructor for 18 years.  De-escalation is always is always the goal. 

None of us....except for the insane....want to be involved in a deadly force situation. 

The world can be a cruel place.   I wish i could keep everyone away from the realty but it's unfair and unrealistic.+

She's young.  The things i see, or have seen, have changed me.  Time will cause her to change what she sees.

Beware of an old man in a profession where men usually die young ...

Edited by Historian
  • Like 3
  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

  • Please Donate To TBS

    Please donate to TBS.
    Your support is needed and it is greatly appreciated.
×
×
  • Create New...