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Waco on Netflix


gwalchmai
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Just started it - watched episode 1 last night.  Admittedly it's probably not 100% factual but it is interesting - and from what I remember largely based in fact.

I remember when Bo Gritz talked Weaver out of Ruby Ridge.

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On 5/13/2020 at 10:47 AM, Cheygriz said:

Time to let it rest.

I disagree because I don't believe the sins of the 1990s FBI and ATF have ever been fully aired out.

It also appears that the FBI never learned their lessons.

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On 5/14/2020 at 8:59 AM, SC Tiger said:

I disagree because I don't believe the sins of the 1990s FBI and ATF have ever been fully aired out.

It also appears that the FBI never learned their lessons.

And they never will be. Re-hashing it over and over will accomplish  nothing.

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16 hours ago, Cheygriz said:

And they never will be. Re-hashing it over and over will accomplish  nothing.

Keep it uppermost in people's minds.  Wounds heal if they don't fester.  Pick at it all the time, keep it from healing and pretty soon it will get infected.  Persistence is the key!

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On 5/16/2020 at 7:05 PM, Cheygriz said:

And they never will be. Re-hashing it over and over will accomplish  nothing.

I hear what you're saying but I still disagree.  We're seeing that same arrogance from the FBI again.  Not sure it ever went away.  Maybe this will remind people that you can't always take the FBI's word on stuff.

No one will be proscuted on Waco or RR, but maybe we can ensure that either the next Waco/RR does not happen, or if it does that the people responsible face justice.

Edited by SC Tiger
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On 5/13/2020 at 7:50 PM, Moshe said:

That's typical, from Netflix, Hulu, and some pulpits. 

Except at least this time it is 100% deserved.  This isn't based off of the show - I remember both Ruby Ridge and Waco.

No one ever said it better than Ronald Reagan:

 

Edited by SC Tiger
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4 hours ago, Cheygriz said:

Koresh was a homicidal monster just like Jim Jones or Charlie Manson.

 

Let's face it. There were no good guys at Waco. On either side.

Know a guy on another board who was at the Davidian compound but left before the ATF attacked.  Not sure  if that was before the whole thing started or if he walked out at some point during the standoff.  He's apparently no fan of Koresh, but according to him, the worst accusations against him (sex with young girls) were not true.  

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On 5/16/2020 at 7:05 PM, Cheygriz said:

And they never will be. Re-hashing it over and over will accomplish  nothing.

Sadly but that's what happens. It sells.

Here we are many years later still talking about it and Ruby Ridge. 

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4 hours ago, Cheygriz said:

Koresh was a homicidal monster just like Jim Jones or Charlie Manson.

 

Let's face it. There were no good guys at Waco. On either side.

That doesn’t really seem to be born out of fact (atleast from what I’ve seen). 
 

The alphabet bois dicked both of those (Ruby Ridge, Waco) up badly. And people died. 

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43 minutes ago, AK_Stick said:

That doesn’t really seem to be born out of fact (atleast from what I’ve seen). 
 

The alphabet bois dicked both of those (Ruby Ridge, Waco) up badly. And people died. 

As stated above, I'm not even sure the worst accusations against Koresh were even true.  He was no messiah, sure as hell wasn't the second coming of Jesus, and I think he effectively brainwashed his followers, plus he was an absolute nut - but I do think that he may well have been within the law.  And I'm sure as hell no anarchist, anti-federal-government type.

Rumor has it that the "grenade casings" were used to make these:

GERNADECD5.gif

Plus I don't think those can even be easily activated anyway.  I mean it's possible if you replace the fuse, the body, add the explosive.......

....I guess you could reuse the pin and the spoon.

 

I don't buy the bit about Delta doing the raid either.  Because quite simply I doubt they would have fvcked it up that badly.  

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28 minutes ago, SC Tiger said:

I don't buy the bit about Delta doing the raid either.  Because quite simply I doubt they would have fvcked it up that badly.  

 

If Delta had done it...it would have been done right, fast, and professionally.

No way were they involved.  In fact, I bet the ATF Agents who died were lied to about the raid.  I pin the blame on Reno.

There were many options on how to arrest Koresh that did not involve lots of people being killed.

Edited by Historian
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2 hours ago, Historian said:

Sadly but that's what happens. It sells.

Here we are many years later still talking about it and Ruby Ridge. 

The key is to remember the bad parts (the sins of the ATF and FBI) without turning Weaver or Koresh into heros.  They weren't.  They may have been victims in a sense but they weren't heros.  

Both deserved an ass kicking most likely.  But what happened was a tragedy and stupid.  And criminal.

 

28 minutes ago, Historian said:

 

If Delta had done it...it would have been done right, fast, and professionally.

No way were they involved.  In fact, I bet the ATF Agents who died were lied to about the raid.  I pin the blame on Reno.

There were many options on how to arrest Koresh that did not involve lots of people being killed.

Probably, but taking a structure like that is more of a task for Rangers than special forces anyway.  Regardless, they would have done it right.  People think SF/Delta/SEALs are some sort of supermen and in a sense they are, but their missions are more focused and not suited to large-force engagements.

I think there were Delta/SF/something advisors there but that's probably all they did - advise.  In fact I think someone in SF basically told the soldiers they were not allowed to assist in the raid in any way.  Just let them have some training space at Hood.  Not sure but I doubt they were even in Waco.  From Wikipedia under "Waco Siege"

"Although the original request for assistance was initially approved, the commander of the Special Forces detachment questioned the request, and the ATF obtained only a training site at Fort Hood, Texas, from February 25 to February 27 with safety inspections for the training lanes, and was given only medical and communications training and equipment.[38]"

Link - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_siege#Preparations

Sounds like Special Forces saw this was gonna be 'amateur hour' and wanted nothing to do with it. 

This is also likely the source of the rumors regarding Delta doing the raid.

Only niggle with your post is that I don't think the ATF works for the AG.  They are part of the Treasury department I think.  So while I think Reno covered her ass afterwards, I don't pin the original screwup on her.

Edited by SC Tiger
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1 hour ago, SC Tiger said:

As stated above, I'm not even sure the worst accusations against Koresh were even true.  He was no messiah, sure as hell wasn't the second coming of Jesus, and I think he effectively brainwashed his followers, plus he was an absolute nut - but I do think that he may well have been within the law.  And I'm sure as hell no anarchist, anti-federal-government type.

Rumor has it that the "grenade casings" were used to make these:

GERNADECD5.gif

Plus I don't think those can even be easily activated anyway.  I mean it's possible if you replace the fuse, the body, add the explosive.......

....I guess you could reuse the pin and the spoon.

 

I don't buy the bit about Delta doing the raid either.  Because quite simply I doubt they would have fvcked it up that badly.  

At that time, fuses were something you were able to come by(later ATF has regulated them away) It would not have been very hard for someone with minor welding skills to have reactivated them. 
 

 

That said, nothing supports them having done so. 
 

Delta was on had as advisors, but nothing suggests they were active participants. 

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10 minutes ago, AK_Stick said:

/At that time, fuses were something you were able to come by(later ATF has regulated them away) It would not have been very hard for someone with minor welding skills to have reactivated them. 
 

 

That said, nothing supports them having done so. 
 

Delta was on had as advisors, but nothing suggests they were active participants. 

Didn't realize that.  But if the ATF was that worried about grenade casings they should check pretty much every Army-Navy store I've ever been in.  They have (had) buckets of the non-active grenades.

 

I read somewhere that the group training/advising the ATF agents had them write their blood type on each arm and their neck.  Kinda makes you wonder if they knew that group was likely to screw up.  Though I think that is somewhat normal in military operations.

Edited by SC Tiger
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I guess that I just have zero sympathy for monsters like Koresh, or those stupid enough to follow him.

 

Were the FBI and the BATFags lying, cold blooded killers???  HELL YES!

 

Could it have been handled without violence? Probably!  Does that excuse Koresh??? HELL NO!

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