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For The Car Folks. 351 Cleveland vs 351 M same year?

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What is the difference.  I have a 79 351M stamped C2 so was made in Cleveland Engine plant Number 2 if I am correct.  Educate me here. Internally what is the difference and all that.  Eric please go to the courtesy desk. You have a call.

Dave..

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I guess I need to hang on this then?

Dave..

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The DIY block identification link is interesting. I'm curious, though, how the example given was cast on February 30?

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21 minutes ago, Paul53 said:

The DIY block identification link is interesting. I'm curious, though, how the example given was cast on February 30?

May want to pass on that one...

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25 minutes ago, gwalchmai said:

May want to pass on that one...

Wrong, it's extremely rare and worth a small fortune, a true collector's item.

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The big difference between the 351C and 351M is the bellhousing.

The C has the typical bellhousing of small block Fords, the M has the bellhousing that's the same as the 429 and 460 engines and thus is usually found in larger vehicles that were offered with the larger engine while using the same transmission.

There's also a difference in crankshaft journal sizes. The M having larger journals, pros and cons there.

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I liked my new '68 Torino after it got sorted out.  I bought it from the facts book, before any advertising brochures came out.   I bought it completely set up for the maximum hp to weight ratio.  Unfortunately this left me with a bench seat (50 lbs. less than buckets) but a 4 spd.  It was a 2 Dr, Ht, GT.  But the 4 spd transmission was the worst shifting transmission I ever had.  At times it would even lock you out of gear during quick shifting. 

After a few drag races  the engine would torque enough to drop the clutch linkage that use the body for a pivot.  Under heavy load the torque would cause the engine and trans to rotate far enough that the linkage would actually fall off the pivot.  This happened to me at least three times.

The first week I had mine, I went over a railroad crossing and the suspension bottomed out.  Believe it or not, the duals passed through the spring and rail so when it bottomed out, it pinched the dual shut!!!!!!!!!  The whole car hummed with the exhaust restriction.  I drove it straight to the dealer and they had to send the pipes back to Detroit when they put in the replacements.

I loved the engine.  With a working hood scoop and the cooler air, it really was fun from stop light to stop light.

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Posted (edited)

All of Ford's 'better ideas' haven't panned-out.....

Example is the infamous 351M. M meaning 'modified' is probably 'cause they thought the larger crankshaft journal sizes were a good thing, that or just thought it sounded cool. Fact is that larger crankshaft journals result in more bearing wear. 351M's and 400's (a taller deck 351M for longer stroke) were, back in the day, known for being dud motors that developed 'bottom end knocks' because of bearing wear.

And now if  consider long-stroke motors as a plus.... the answer is yes. Sure big bore short stroke engines are great for producing HP at high RPM's.... But, long stroke engines give more time for complete burning of fuel in the power stroke. They are great for use with a super chargers/blowers

Edited by *OldSchool*
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46 minutes ago, janice6 said:

I liked my new '68 Torino after it got sorted out.  I bought it from the facts book, before any advertising brochures came out.   I bought it completely set up for the maximum hp to weight ratio.  Unfortunately this left me with a bench seat (50 lbs. less than buckets) but a 4 spd.  It was a 2 Dr, Ht, GT.  But the 4 spd transmission was the worst shifting transmission I ever had.  At times it would even lock you out of gear during quick shifting. 

After a few drag races  the engine would torque enough to drop the clutch linkage that use the body for a pivot.  Under heavy load the torque would cause the engine and trans to rotate far enough that the linkage would actually fall off the pivot.  This happened to me at least three times.

The first week I had mine, I went over a railroad crossing and the suspension bottomed out.  Believe it or not, the duals passed through the spring and rail so when it bottomed out, it pinched the dual shut!!!!!!!!!  The whole car hummed with the exhaust restriction.  I drove it straight to the dealer and they had to send the pipes back to Detroit when they put in the replacements.

I loved the engine.  With a working hood scoop and the cooler air, it really was fun from stop light to stop light.

What engine?

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Just now, *OldSchool* said:

What engine?

351C of course.  At that point in time, it was the only 351 offered.

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, janice6 said:

351C of course.  At that point in time, it was the only 351 offered.

Could have been bought with 429, not sure about the FE 428? Maybe even 427.

But of course your being 'topic related'.

Anyway, all the engine options in '68 (which included a mechanical lifter 302, or maybe that was '69) would have been as much of a conundrum for me as handgun selection. But, I would have gone with 4-speed for sure.

Edited by *OldSchool*
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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, *OldSchool* said:

Could have been bought with 429, not sure about the FE 428? Maybe even 427.

But of course your being 'topic related'.

Anyway, all the engine options in '68 (which included a mechanical lifter 302, or maybe that was '69) would have been as much of a conundrum for me as handgun selection. But, I would have gone with 4-speed for sure.

Oops:

The "mechanical lifter 302" was actually a Chevy engine at the time. It's the same time-frame ('68) that Chevy and Ford more or less swapped the 302 and 427, meaning the advertised CID. 

Edited by *OldSchool*

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Posted (edited)
56 minutes ago, *OldSchool* said:

Could have been bought with 429, not sure about the FE 428? Maybe even 427.

But of course your being 'topic related'.

Anyway, all the engine options in '68 (which included a mechanical lifter 302, or maybe that was '69) would have been as much of a conundrum for me as handgun selection. But, I would have gone with 4-speed for sure.

Maybe it could have been,  but as I said I advance ordered it before any literature was available at the dealership, and the GT was offered with the 351 as the only option from  that source.   I had to work from the "facts book" that preceded any information the dealer had.  It included limited information and no pictures.  I had to wait a couple of months for it to be delivered so I'm guessing it was one of the first in my area.  I never saw any of the bigger engine options till much later after I bought mine.

 

I should have mentioned that the clutch linkage problem raised quite a stir and the dealer said that Ford apparently set it up to favor the automatic transmission.  They thought that is why the linkage was so cobbled together.  I couldn't believe anyone would design it so poorly.

Edited by janice6
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I had '71 Torino GT with 351C..... Arkansas car..... great shape and original...... I sold it to buy a Harley...... I'm a dumb ****......

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What’s the Difference Between a Ford 351 Windsor, Cleveland, or Modified Engine?
The Three 351s.

Ford 351 Windsor Engine
The 351W is named for the factory in Windsor, Ontario that produced them. It is part of the long-running Ford small block Windsor V8 family, which also includes the venerable Ford 302 (5.0L) V8. It shares the same small block V8 bellhousing pattern and motor mounts of the August 1964+ Windsor engines*. Key differences from the other Windsor engines include a taller deck height, unique firing order, a smaller bore, and longer stroke.

*Pre-August 1964 engines (221/260/289) had a narrow 5-bolt bellhousing pattern, also referred to as the early V8 Windsor pattern. All post-August 1964 Windsor engines use a wider 6-bolt pattern (including all 351W), commonly referred to as the small block V8 pattern. The patterns are not interchangeable.
It’s far more common than the 351 Cleveland, and though it doesn’t have the “high performance” aura of its 351C counterpart, there is plenty of aftermarket support for it. Engine builders and hotrodders have no problems pulling gobs of horsepower out of these engines, and popular upgrades include cylinder heads, camshaft, headers, and intake manifold.

Ford 351 Cleveland Engine

The 351C was built in Ford’s Cleveland, Ohio factory, and is part of the Ford 335 engine family. Back in the day, the 351C was considered the go-to Ford performance engine, thanks to its better-flowing cylinder heads and stronger crankshaft. Ford made both 2V and 4V cylinder head versions for the 351C, with the latter 4V heads being the more performance-oriented versions.

Unfortunately, Ford only produced the 351 Cleveland for five years (in the U.S. The engine’s rarity makes it a more expensive platform for an engine build, though it’s capable of making impressive power with the right upgrades. And, for what it’s worth, there’s still a ton of Blue Oval cache in saying you’ve got a real Cleveland under your hood.


351 Modified Engine

Officially, Ford never called these engines 400/351 Modified or 400M/351M. “Modified” was a slang designation originally applied by Ford enthusiasts.
The 351M is part of the same Ford 335 V8 engine series as the 351 Cleveland. It’s based off of the 400 Modified engine, which was essentially a 351C with a longer stroke. Unlike the 351C however, the 400 block had the bellhousing bolt pattern of 385-series big blocks. It also had a higher deck height to accommodate the longer stroke.

As the 351 Cleveland faded away, Ford engineers reverted to the original 351C’s 3.5-inch stroke, yet retained the 400’s deck height to create the 351M. The bellhousing bolt pattern on the 351M uses the same pattern as the 385-series big block engines as well.  (That means, even though they’re related, transmissions, intake manifolds, and other parts may not be interchangeable between a 351C and 351M.)It’s also worth noting that the 351M was only available from the factory with a 2-barrel carburetor.

How can you tell the difference between the  351 engines by looking at them?

Three Easy Visual Differences Between the 351W and 351C/351M.
    * Radiator Hose. On a Cleveland/Modified engine, the radiator hose (and thermostat housing) sticks vertically right out of the top of the engine block. Windsor engines have the radiator hose and thermostat installed into the intake manifold, where it exits from the front of the engine.
    * Valve Covers. Windsor valve covers use 6-bolt covers, whereas the Cleveland/Modified uses 8-bolt covers.
    * Timing Chain. Cleveland/Modified engines have the timing chain recessed into the front of the block itself, and its timing cover is essentially just a flat piece of metal. The Windsor’s timing chain attaches to the front of the engine and has an external timing cover typically made of cast aluminum.
Three Easy Visual Differences Between the 351C and 351M
    * Cleveland engines share a bellhousing bolt pattern with the Windsor family. 351M engines use the bellhousing bolt pattern of the 385-series Ford big blocks.
    * Due to a higher deck, the 351M’s intake manifold is wider than a 351C.
    * Motor Mounts. 351 Cleveland mounts use two bolts to attach to the engine, whereas the Modified uses three.

Why the Three Engines?


Though they share displacements, each motor was built and configured for different applications. For instance, the 4V-351 Cleveland went in the top-tier performance cars, but the 2V–351C engines could be found in a smattering of medium-to-full size 1970-74 passenger sedans too. By comparison, the 351M was used in 1975-82 passenger cars, light trucks, and SUVs.

And that’s what causes the confusion. Swaps between the three engines are common, so you can’t always match the engine to the vehicle you found it in. And, given the lack of interchangeability between key components, it’s absolutely critical to know what you’re wrenching on.

To put it into perspective, Ford offered the 351 Cleveland from 1970-74 (in the U.S.) and the 351 Modified from 1975-82. The 351 Windsor was available from 1969-97, making it by far the most common engine of the trio.

https://www.onallcylinders.com/2018/01/19/whats-difference-ford-351-windsor-cleveland-modified-engine/

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10 minutes ago, Borg warner said:

What’s the Difference Between a Ford 351 Windsor, Cleveland, or Modified Engine?
The Three 351s.

Ford 351 Windsor Engine
The 351W is named for the factory in Windsor, Ontario that produced them. It is part of the long-running Ford small block Windsor V8 family, which also includes the venerable Ford 302 (5.0L) V8. It shares the same small block V8 bellhousing pattern and motor mounts of the August 1964+ Windsor engines*. Key differences from the other Windsor engines include a taller deck height, unique firing order, a smaller bore, and longer stroke.

*Pre-August 1964 engines (221/260/289) had a narrow 5-bolt bellhousing pattern, also referred to as the early V8 Windsor pattern. All post-August 1964 Windsor engines use a wider 6-bolt pattern (including all 351W), commonly referred to as the small block V8 pattern. The patterns are not interchangeable.
It’s far more common than the 351 Cleveland, and though it doesn’t have the “high performance” aura of its 351C counterpart, there is plenty of aftermarket support for it. Engine builders and hotrodders have no problems pulling gobs of horsepower out of these engines, and popular upgrades include cylinder heads, camshaft, headers, and intake manifold.

Ford 351 Cleveland Engine

The 351C was built in Ford’s Cleveland, Ohio factory, and is part of the Ford 335 engine family. Back in the day, the 351C was considered the go-to Ford performance engine, thanks to its better-flowing cylinder heads and stronger crankshaft. Ford made both 2V and 4V cylinder head versions for the 351C, with the latter 4V heads being the more performance-oriented versions.

Unfortunately, Ford only produced the 351 Cleveland for five years (in the U.S. The engine’s rarity makes it a more expensive platform for an engine build, though it’s capable of making impressive power with the right upgrades. And, for what it’s worth, there’s still a ton of Blue Oval cache in saying you’ve got a real Cleveland under your hood.


351 Modified Engine

Officially, Ford never called these engines 400/351 Modified or 400M/351M. “Modified” was a slang designation originally applied by Ford enthusiasts.
The 351M is part of the same Ford 335 V8 engine series as the 351 Cleveland. It’s based off of the 400 Modified engine, which was essentially a 351C with a longer stroke. Unlike the 351C however, the 400 block had the bellhousing bolt pattern of 385-series big blocks. It also had a higher deck height to accommodate the longer stroke.

As the 351 Cleveland faded away, Ford engineers reverted to the original 351C’s 3.5-inch stroke, yet retained the 400’s deck height to create the 351M. The bellhousing bolt pattern on the 351M uses the same pattern as the 385-series big block engines as well.  (That means, even though they’re related, transmissions, intake manifolds, and other parts may not be interchangeable between a 351C and 351M.)It’s also worth noting that the 351M was only available from the factory with a 2-barrel carburetor.

How can you tell the difference between the  351 engines by looking at them?

Three Easy Visual Differences Between the 351W and 351C/351M.
    * Radiator Hose. On a Cleveland/Modified engine, the radiator hose (and thermostat housing) sticks vertically right out of the top of the engine block. Windsor engines have the radiator hose and thermostat installed into the intake manifold, where it exits from the front of the engine.
    * Valve Covers. Windsor valve covers use 6-bolt covers, whereas the Cleveland/Modified uses 8-bolt covers.
    * Timing Chain. Cleveland/Modified engines have the timing chain recessed into the front of the block itself, and its timing cover is essentially just a flat piece of metal. The Windsor’s timing chain attaches to the front of the engine and has an external timing cover typically made of cast aluminum.
Three Easy Visual Differences Between the 351C and 351M
    * Cleveland engines share a bellhousing bolt pattern with the Windsor family. 351M engines use the bellhousing bolt pattern of the 385-series Ford big blocks.
    * Due to a higher deck, the 351M’s intake manifold is wider than a 351C.
    * Motor Mounts. 351 Cleveland mounts use two bolts to attach to the engine, whereas the Modified uses three.

Why the Three Engines?


Though they share displacements, each motor was built and configured for different applications. For instance, the 4V-351 Cleveland went in the top-tier performance cars, but the 2V–351C engines could be found in a smattering of medium-to-full size 1970-74 passenger sedans too. By comparison, the 351M was used in 1975-82 passenger cars, light trucks, and SUVs.

And that’s what causes the confusion. Swaps between the three engines are common, so you can’t always match the engine to the vehicle you found it in. And, given the lack of interchangeability between key components, it’s absolutely critical to know what you’re wrenching on.

To put it into perspective, Ford offered the 351 Cleveland from 1970-74 (in the U.S.) and the 351 Modified from 1975-82. The 351 Windsor was available from 1969-97, making it by far the most common engine of the trio.

https://www.onallcylinders.com/2018/01/19/whats-difference-ford-351-windsor-cleveland-modified-engine/

I just realized I have been screwing up my posts by claiming a 351C.  It was most definitely not a "C".  They only came out with a Windsor engine originally and that is what mine was.  It actually did better from a standing start than a C from my experience on the city streets.

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2 minutes ago, janice6 said:

I just realized I have been screwing up my posts by claiming a 351C.  It was most definitely not a "C".  They only came out with a Windsor engine originally and that is what mine was.  It actually did better from a standing start than a C from my experience on the city streets.

The Windsor does rock for HP to weight ratio.

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24 minutes ago, Borg warner said:

What’s the Difference Between a Ford 351 Windsor, Cleveland, or Modified Engine?
The Three 351s.

Ford 351 Windsor Engine
The 351W is named for the factory in Windsor, Ontario that produced them. It is part of the long-running Ford small block Windsor V8 family, which also includes the venerable Ford 302 (5.0L) V8. It shares the same small block V8 bellhousing pattern and motor mounts of the August 1964+ Windsor engines*. Key differences from the other Windsor engines include a taller deck height, unique firing order, a smaller bore, and longer stroke.

*Pre-August 1964 engines (221/260/289) had a narrow 5-bolt bellhousing pattern, also referred to as the early V8 Windsor pattern. All post-August 1964 Windsor engines use a wider 6-bolt pattern (including all 351W), commonly referred to as the small block V8 pattern. The patterns are not interchangeable.
It’s far more common than the 351 Cleveland, and though it doesn’t have the “high performance” aura of its 351C counterpart, there is plenty of aftermarket support for it. Engine builders and hotrodders have no problems pulling gobs of horsepower out of these engines, and popular upgrades include cylinder heads, camshaft, headers, and intake manifold.

Ford 351 Cleveland Engine

The 351C was built in Ford’s Cleveland, Ohio factory, and is part of the Ford 335 engine family. Back in the day, the 351C was considered the go-to Ford performance engine, thanks to its better-flowing cylinder heads and stronger crankshaft. Ford made both 2V and 4V cylinder head versions for the 351C, with the latter 4V heads being the more performance-oriented versions.

Unfortunately, Ford only produced the 351 Cleveland for five years (in the U.S. The engine’s rarity makes it a more expensive platform for an engine build, though it’s capable of making impressive power with the right upgrades. And, for what it’s worth, there’s still a ton of Blue Oval cache in saying you’ve got a real Cleveland under your hood.


351 Modified Engine

Officially, Ford never called these engines 400/351 Modified or 400M/351M. “Modified” was a slang designation originally applied by Ford enthusiasts.
The 351M is part of the same Ford 335 V8 engine series as the 351 Cleveland. It’s based off of the 400 Modified engine, which was essentially a 351C with a longer stroke. Unlike the 351C however, the 400 block had the bellhousing bolt pattern of 385-series big blocks. It also had a higher deck height to accommodate the longer stroke.

As the 351 Cleveland faded away, Ford engineers reverted to the original 351C’s 3.5-inch stroke, yet retained the 400’s deck height to create the 351M. The bellhousing bolt pattern on the 351M uses the same pattern as the 385-series big block engines as well.  (That means, even though they’re related, transmissions, intake manifolds, and other parts may not be interchangeable between a 351C and 351M.)It’s also worth noting that the 351M was only available from the factory with a 2-barrel carburetor.

How can you tell the difference between the  351 engines by looking at them?

Three Easy Visual Differences Between the 351W and 351C/351M.
    * Radiator Hose. On a Cleveland/Modified engine, the radiator hose (and thermostat housing) sticks vertically right out of the top of the engine block. Windsor engines have the radiator hose and thermostat installed into the intake manifold, where it exits from the front of the engine.
    * Valve Covers. Windsor valve covers use 6-bolt covers, whereas the Cleveland/Modified uses 8-bolt covers.
    * Timing Chain. Cleveland/Modified engines have the timing chain recessed into the front of the block itself, and its timing cover is essentially just a flat piece of metal. The Windsor’s timing chain attaches to the front of the engine and has an external timing cover typically made of cast aluminum.
Three Easy Visual Differences Between the 351C and 351M
    * Cleveland engines share a bellhousing bolt pattern with the Windsor family. 351M engines use the bellhousing bolt pattern of the 385-series Ford big blocks.
    * Due to a higher deck, the 351M’s intake manifold is wider than a 351C.
    * Motor Mounts. 351 Cleveland mounts use two bolts to attach to the engine, whereas the Modified uses three.

Why the Three Engines?


Though they share displacements, each motor was built and configured for different applications. For instance, the 4V-351 Cleveland went in the top-tier performance cars, but the 2V–351C engines could be found in a smattering of medium-to-full size 1970-74 passenger sedans too. By comparison, the 351M was used in 1975-82 passenger cars, light trucks, and SUVs.

And that’s what causes the confusion. Swaps between the three engines are common, so you can’t always match the engine to the vehicle you found it in. And, given the lack of interchangeability between key components, it’s absolutely critical to know what you’re wrenching on.

To put it into perspective, Ford offered the 351 Cleveland from 1970-74 (in the U.S.) and the 351 Modified from 1975-82. The 351 Windsor was available from 1969-97, making it by far the most common engine of the trio.

https://www.onallcylinders.com/2018/01/19/whats-difference-ford-351-windsor-cleveland-modified-engine/

You were a science major, right?

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Betcha he has a slide rule, graph paper and a .5 mm mechanical pencil  and isn't afraid to use them.

:biggrin:

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Posted (edited)

Would you believe: Swords don't scare me but slide rules do. ?

:D

Edited by *OldSchool*
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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, janice6 said:

I just realized I have been screwing up my posts by claiming a 351C.  It was most definitely not a "C".  They only came out with a Windsor engine originally and that is what mine was.  It actually did better from a standing start than a C from my experience on the city streets.

There are enough upgrades for the Windsor engine available to make it as strong running as a Cleveland, You can put on big valve high-flowing heads, high compression pistons, a high performance camshaft, and an aftermarket intake manifold with either high CFM carburation or EFI and there are even 4 bolt mains and forged cranks available.

Some old time hot rodder back in the sixties once said, "Speed costs money, How fast you want to go depends on how much money you want to spend"

If I were going to build a high performance Ford small block, I'd start with one of the 400's which is built on the same block as the 351M. There is no substitute for cubic inches.

 

Edited by Borg warner

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Lots of good info here.  Thanks.  I will keep this motor.  Dad traded a flat head  Ford V8 engine for a roto-tiller and regretted it.  I'll keep this.  It's in a 79 F250 4WD rotting away. nothing I can do about that.  4:10 posi traction rear end also.   Don't ask is long story.  Fact of life I can't change except got historical plates on it so the zoning won't crap with me.  Witch they did so I got the plates.

Dave.

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On 6/8/2019 at 11:09 PM, janice6 said:

351C of course.  At that point in time, it was the only 351 offered.

I have a 1969 Mustang Mach I that came with the 351 Windsor.  The 351C wasn't introduced until 1970 Mach I

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