Notre Dame is burning down

[Moshe]

The Reichstag was in Germany.  Hitler took over the Reichstag, supplanted it and declared himself fuhrer.  This only spread to France to slaughter more Jews.  That is the only correlation.  So, just stop crawfishing, realize you stepped in it, and move on.

[Ricordo]

32 minutes ago, janice6 said:

Many times the contents have more value than the structure.

Sure. I understand.

But darn if that Lady was gorgeous. Magnificent. Beyond its Gothic origin, which I'm not particularly fond of.

It is estimated that only 50% of the structure was original last Sunday. Taking into account the centuries of restorations, additions, improvements, the electromagnetic grid to keep the birds away... ?

As to the crown of thorns, I do not believe that it was The Crown of Thorns. For various historical, religious, political, cultural and psychological reasons. Candid as candid can be, the only content that impressed me was the Golden Cross, but it's not easy to go unnoticed. The high ceiling, however, it impresses as much or perhaps more than it was designed to do. It was quite humbling, actually. So we go back to the structure and its significance. Without Michelangelo's touch, the Sistine Chapel was just a barn.

[Moshe]

Yes, I agree, it is sad to see old and ancient architecture go to ruin.  It is a root to the past, and as I have said before, I may not be Catholic, but I can appreciate a good Cathedral just for the building technique alone.  I have actually paid in South America at the door to enter old Cathedrals, because I find them absolutely fascinating.  I am also a fan of some of older buildings in cities that aren't all steel and glass.  I loved looking out from the Mayo when I was there for a week, and looking across at an ornate old hotel, complete with gargoyle reliefs.  I understand that this is a greater tragedy for Catholic adherents.  But, any destruction of ornate older structures makes me sad.  I guess I prefer a time when architecture had grandeur, and not some slapped together crap.

[gwalchmai]

23 minutes ago, Moshe said:

The Reichstag was in Germany.  Hitler took over the Reichstag, supplanted it and declared himself fuhrer.  This only spread to France to slaughter more Jews.  That is the only correlation.  So, just stop crawfishing, realize you stepped in it, and move on.

Oh, yeah. So why not just say that the actual cause of the Holocaust was Hitler's grandparents' first meeting then? That fact is you got all triggered, got caught trying to bully me with your nonsensical virtue signalling, and got called on it.

For the record, I'm not afraid to acknowledge that radical islam will destroy Western Civilization if allowed, and the Notre Dame fire is as good a reason as any to send the muslims back home. The longer we wait, the worse it will be.

[Dric902]

3 hours ago, SC Tiger said:

IMO the ideas of arson are a bit premature.  With renovations going on it is quite possible that it was done by accident.  While the French will handle any arsonist without mercy, for now I would tend to believe it was an accident.

Timing makes sense too if the renovation crew got off at 5.  Someone got sloppy in their final few minutes at work.  It happens.

Sensitive question......were any of the renovation crew Muslim?

 

.

[Moshe]

You might want to stop while you are ahead, cool, off, go cuss in the corner, whatever your fancy.  I never said anything positive about radical Islam.  What I did say, that a Germanesque purge, like you mention of putting t a Reichstag together to exterminate them is not a good reference is provocative.   I actually discussed a strategic methodology for the elimination of radical Islam.  A wise man I still know, once told me, once you dig a hole-stop digging.  

There is nothing to indicate there was anything criminal or terroristic about Notre Dame.  I feel it is a tragic historical loss.  I feel any piece of history someone tries to erase in general is a tragic loss.  So, I am not going to assume terrorism or crime just yet.  There are theories, and theories don't have legs without evidence.  It could have been some jackass repairman that tossed his cigarette.  So, don't gab a theory without evidence.  I am willing to entertain lots of theories, and eliminate them one by one as evidence is gathered.  That is simply a logical process of elimination.  

The terrorists did it, I know they did it, works as well as the 1950's of assuming a black guy did it, round up one.  Investigations take time, evidence, leads, and for lack of a better word, gut instinct.  This isn't a 45 minute episode of NCIS, and it will be neatly wrapped in a bow for you.  It isn't a fictional story, where there are lots of leads so the novel doesn't go on for 500 pages.  This could take weeks, months, years, to determine the cause.  Hearsay by idiots on Twitter mean nothing.  One idiot putting out that the building was Anti-Semitic, which is simply idiotic.  The building, to my knowledge didn't hold an Inquisition, or used was for a genocide.  So, if you let your emotions rule your head, your head is going to take a vacation somewhere dark and stinky.

[pipedreams]

[gwalchmai]

29 minutes ago, Moshe said:

You might want to stop while you are ahead, cool, off, go cuss in the corner, whatever your fancy.  I never said anything positive about radical Islam.  What I did say, that a Germanesque purge, like you mention of putting t a Reichstag together to exterminate them is not a good reference is provocative.   I actually discussed a strategic methodology for the elimination of radical Islam.  A wise man I still know, once told me, once you dig a hole-stop digging.  

There is nothing to indicate there was anything criminal or terroristic about Notre Dame.  I feel it is a tragic historical loss.  I feel any piece of history someone tries to erase in general is a tragic loss.  So, I am not going to assume terrorism or crime just yet.  There are theories, and theories don't have legs without evidence.  It could have been some jackass repairman that tossed his cigarette.  So, don't gab a theory without evidence.  I am willing to entertain lots of theories, and eliminate them one by one as evidence is gathered.  That is simply a logical process of elimination.  

The terrorists did it, I know they did it, works as well as the 1950's of assuming a black guy did it, round up one.  Investigations take time, evidence, leads, and for lack of a better word, gut instinct.  This isn't a 45 minute episode of NCIS, and it will be neatly wrapped in a bow for you.  It isn't a fictional story, where there are lots of leads so the novel doesn't go on for 500 pages.  This could take weeks, months, years, to determine the cause.  Hearsay by idiots on Twitter mean nothing.  One idiot putting out that the building was Anti-Semitic, which is simply idiotic.  The building, to my knowledge didn't hold an Inquisition, or used was for a genocide.  So, if you let your emotions rule your head, your head is going to take a vacation somewhere dark and stinky.

Sorry, I'm unable to sift through all that. I will add a couple of points.

I did not call for genocide, as you implied. Your misunderstanding that the Reichstag fire was a call for genocide may be contributing to your confusion. Maybe you should do a little research on some of this stuff.

I DID call for using the event as a call to action of ridding Europe of radical muslims. I explained why.

I do find your dragging in "the 1950's of assuming a black guy did it" to be a work of comic genius worthy of Waters or Jackson-Lee, and I commend you for it. Hopefully it's comic, anyway. Who knows, you may be planning on accusing me of slave ownership soon.

Edited April 16, 2019 by gwalchmai

[pipedreams]

A bit of other coverage:  Vandalism of churches across France has become a major issue, with nine churches across the country vandalised in just 11 days in February.

"Just last month the second largest church in Paris was damaged by fire, which police have said was deliberately started. Dramatic images from the scene showed flames pouring out of a “massive” porch door and stained glass window, although fortunately the Paris Pompiers were able to put out the blaze before it spread to the rest of the building.

In the aftermath of the attack on the church, French right-wing leader Laurent Wauquiez hit out at the mainstream media for ignoring the story of church attacks in France, remarking that the amount of coverage the stories got was “tiny”, reports London’s The Times."

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/vandalism-at-hundreds-of-french-churches-n509gwb0d

https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/04/16/pakistani-migrant-trial-smashing-french-basilica-housing-former-kings/

http://www.leparisien.fr/seine-saint-denis-93/saint-denis-le-vandale-presume-de-la-basilique-sera-juge-en-mai-12-04-2019-8052141.php

[Moshe]

It was meant as comedy, yes.  Sadly, in America that has happened.  Pop in either on Hulu or Netflix, "Crimes to Remember," this actually happened to a black cook named "George," the day Martin Luther King Jr. King made his famous speech.  George was no where near the murder of a white woman.  He wasn't even in the same town.  He stayed late at his job because he was glued to the television in the galley as many people were.  Even when a white guy owned up to the crime the same day, the lead detective who knew better was told to shut up and let it ride.  It took until the 70's to exonerate George, even though they had their killer, and admitted killer.  So, we can learn from that, that is crap policing, and making assumptions about a whole group of people.  There are bad people of every religion.  Currently, Jihadists get the most press, because they are the thorn in the world's ass.  But, I am not going to assume a Muslim did it.  I have more reason to dislike Muslims more than most, since the radicals view me personally and people like me for another genocide.  But, not everyone can be pigeon-holed.  I have never met a Jihadist Kurd.  I knew a Kurd that had a hard time acclimatizing to American culture, but not a Jihadist-but still very Muslim.  Jihadist Muslims, and the States that support them are the problem.  

I was three years old in Turkey when my father was stationed in Istanbul with the Air Force.  No Muslim bothered us, my mother wore a scarf, but a lot of American women did in that era too, and men hats.  No one bothered us.  We lived in an apartment downtown with the locals.   The body shop guy Mustafa doted on me-he was Muslim, and always gave be a bottled coke..  Taxi driver's tried to emulate servicemen by yelling "G-dammit!" all the time, until my father told them they may as well be saying "Allah, dammit," and that brought terror to the taxi driver's who never said it again.  Until the Cypress war with the Greeks, my favorite little girl to play with next door was a little Greek girl.  So, not all Muslims are out to get everyone, just the Jihadists.  

Back then in Turkey, the adhered to the ancient customs, that if you visited a home, if they had a little or a lot, they would insist on sharing with you.  It was an insult to decline.  This was probably from the custom of Abrahim, even though they came from his hand maiden.  

So, I have lived among Muslims, I have known Muslims.  Not all of them are out to blow up the world.  You might even watch Doctor Oz, on television.  He is a devout Muslim.  As far as I know, he is trying to make people healthy, not dead.

So, long story short, it is imperative not to group a whole bunch of people into one category.  When I was in investigative school, I had to take a whole course about counter terrorism.  Their techniques, their method of entering a room to killing everyone there, the whole nine.  There are bad people in this world, they get worse by the day.  Some of them even throw five year old boys off of three balconies in a mall.  That doesn't mean I am going to panic and think all black people are bad, and tell my wife to stop having a black woman as her closest friend.  That would be ludicrous.  

I hope some of that got through?

[Moshe]

2 minutes ago, pipedreams said:

A bit of other coverage:  Vandalism of churches across France has become a major issue, with nine churches across the country vandalised in just 11 days in February.

"Just last month the second largest church in Paris was damaged by fire, which police have said was deliberately started. Dramatic images from the scene showed flames pouring out of a “massive” porch door and stained glass window, although fortunately the Paris Pompiers were able to put out the blaze before it spread to the rest of the building.

In the aftermath of the attack on the church, French right-wing leader Laurent Wauquiez hit out at the mainstream media for ignoring the story of church attacks in France, remarking that the amount of coverage the stories got was “tiny”, reports London’s The Times."

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/vandalism-at-hundreds-of-french-churches-n509gwb0d

https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/04/16/pakistani-migrant-trial-smashing-french-basilica-housing-former-kings/

http://www.leparisien.fr/seine-saint-denis-93/saint-denis-le-vandale-presume-de-la-basilique-sera-juge-en-mai-12-04-2019-8052141.php

I hate it when places of worship are targeted.  If you disagree with the teaching, or the philosophy, go somewhere else.  People are ass-hats. 

[Moshe]

https://www.foxnews.com/world/notre-dames-destruction-bound-to-happen

[SC Tiger]

2 hours ago, Ricordo said:

Sure. I understand.

But darn if that Lady was gorgeous. Magnificent. Beyond its Gothic origin, which I'm not particularly fond of.

It is estimated that only 50% of the structure was original last Sunday. Taking into account the centuries of restorations, additions, improvements, the electromagnetic grid to keep the birds away... ?

As to the crown of thorns, I do not believe that it was The Crown of Thorns. For various historical, religious, political, cultural and psychological reasons. Candid as candid can be, the only content that impressed me was the Golden Cross, but it's not easy to go unnoticed. The high ceiling, however, it impresses as much or perhaps more than it was designed to do. It was quite humbling, actually. So we go back to the structure and its significance. Without Michelangelo's touch, the Sistine Chapel was just a barn.

The good news is a large percentage of the parts that aren't original were probably what burned.  Wood rots over time.

It does seem the stained glass windows survived.

 

[SC Tiger]

1 hour ago, Dric902 said:

Sensitive question......were any of the renovation crew Muslim?

 

.

Regardless, I'd rather wait for proof of arson before making accusations.  Otherwise we sound like the lefties and their cries of racism/sexism/insert-thing-here-ism.

[SC Tiger]

Another board I frequent was discussing using water drops on the cathedral - similar to what they do in a forest fire.

To me, it seemed too risky as a) the water would disperse too much (water drops are usually done AHEAD of the fire I think in a forest, and are more about reducing dry conditions and getting the fire to stop spreading), b) turbulence as a result of all of the heat from the fire rising (and possibly resulting in a plane crashing into someone's living room) and c) excessive structural damage from the weight of the water - and perhaps not even on the structure ON fire.

All in all - this seems like something too stupid to even discuss but apparently the Italians have actually done it - though not on a fire anywhere this large:

https://www.pond5.com/stock-footage/47175878/firefighter-helicopter-drops-water-extinguish-fire-building.html

[Dric902]

1 hour ago, SC Tiger said:

Regardless, I'd rather wait for proof of arson before making accusations.  Otherwise we sound like the lefties and their cries of racism/sexism/insert-thing-here-ism.

I’m already hearing the warnings to not let this become an Islamophobic excuse. Just because they are dancing in the street and cheering while the cathedral burned.

im not making accusations, but it would certainly be a line of inquiry. (We are talking about Paris, where they burn cars regularly)

 

.

[kerbie18]

The news is reporting that a "Hero Priest" ran into the fire and saved a number of priceless relics, including the Crown of Thorns itself.

Hell yes! A LOT of history managed to get saved, that's good news....

[gwalchmai]

2 hours ago, Moshe said:

...

I hope some of that got through?

Yes, very impressive.

[Ricordo]

Quote

discussing using water drops on the cathedral

I think I know where the confusion lies. Mind you, my memory dates back to 40-odd years ago and a visit with my wife in 1988-1989.

That area is not that big. It might look huge in photos but in reality it's not a huge area. Add to that that there are other buildings there including apartments very close by and you (you- the reader in a generic sense) might be able to imagine  the difficulties involved.

Now, I've never been where an airplane drops its water tanker load  nor where a helicopter unloads its basket. But I can imagine that merely the impact of that water hitting what's there would cause a lot more damage than the fire did. The nave, for instance, probably would be entirely gone.  Then you have the problems created by dumping on nearby buildings. And they are close by. Heck, if you've ever been hit by a balloon on the face...well, multiply that hit by what? A hundred-fold? Big hit.

Kindly take these two examples by faith. The Eiffel Tower and the Mona Lisa. They look huge, humongous in photos, right? In reality they are not that big. Frankly, you might be disappointed at their size when you first see them in person.

No, the use of water tankers--- airplane or helicopter, I don't think would have been efficient.  However, I understand the grave feeling of impotence of watching it burn and not being able to do anything about it. Especially when The Lady used to be my neighbor.

 

[Huaco Kid]

2 hours ago, Dric902 said:

I’m already hearing the warnings to not let this become an Islamophobic excuse. Just because they are dancing in the street and cheering while the cathedral burned.

SHOCK & AWE II

"This Time It's Condescending!!"

[Silentpoet]

3 hours ago, SC Tiger said:

Regardless, I'd rather wait for proof of arson before making accusations.  Otherwise we sound like the lefties and their cries of racism/sexism/insert-thing-here-ism.

I think it is a reasonable suspicion given the current state of Europe.  Not proof or probable cause, but a good question to ask.

[railfancwb]

This sickens me. The Cathedral is a WORLD HERITAGE SITE.  There's only one. And it made a dent in defining who we are as humans. It was build in the 1100s. If we were to showcase what we have done as a species to a visiting alien civilization, this building would be on the tour. Shame on us all, if it was arson.
An example of another desecration of a World Heritage Site would be the Turks using the Sphinx for target practice in the early 1900s.
 
Things like this hurt my heart.

Various members of the RoP destroying buildings and statues dating hundreds/thousands of years ago in the Middle East.

Pulling down statues in the States. Started with those who fought for the Confederates. Now moving to the nation’s foubders.


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[railfancwb]

M&P15T is correct in all the above and there is all sorts of trash being posted.  The below is just an example.

If to offensive I will remove it, let me know.

Dancing in the streets while the twin towers burned and collapsed.


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[railfancwb]

Found elsewhere. No clue as to accuracy. Did notice no burn symbols in England.


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[pipedreams]

5 hours ago, railfancwb said:

Found elsewhere. No clue as to accuracy. Did notice no burn symbols in England.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That may only mean the author of the chart was plotting fires only in France per the bottom line on the chart.  Does not mean churches in England haven't been damaged.