RenoF250 Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 2 minutes ago, crockett said: You need to pull up sarcasm. Also, where did I say that? So far I count fiveoboy and Jammersix. Zero substance to the topic, or utter bullshit. SC Tiger posting a burned car and AK_Stick making a useless comment regarding worshiping German manufacturing is also trolling, while smoothly hiding it with at least some related content. Those go hand in hand with past postings, same on GT. Maybe I just wanted to see how many trolls can be trapped in a thread that isn't politically inclined. It's ranking high. You did not say all were but the above line indicated there were many. Yeah, I will give you the worship shots are a bit of trolling as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crockett Posted January 18, 2019 Author Share Posted January 18, 2019 1 minute ago, RenoF250 said: Maybe I just wanted to see how many trolls can be trapped in a thread that isn't politically inclined. It's ranking high. You did not say all were but the above line indicated there were many. Yeah, I will give you the worship shots are a bit of trolling as well. It was a reply for Vart, and not you. High is relative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crockett Posted January 18, 2019 Author Share Posted January 18, 2019 PS: Tesla now down over 10% since market opened. Maybe I should short the **** out of the stock... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jammersix Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 Don't worry, no one seriously thinks you were trying to trap anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC Tiger Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 53 minutes ago, crockett said: You need to pull up sarcasm. Also, where did I say that? So far I count fiveoboy and Jammersix. Zero substance to the topic, or utter bull****. SC Tiger posting a burned car and AK_Stick making a useless comment regarding worshiping German manufacturing is also trolling, while smoothly hiding it with at least some related content. Those go hand in hand with past postings, same on GT. Actually I'm more known for posting blue Ferraris for Dave514 on GT (he really hates that) than I am posting burning cars. That and Clemson stuff (hence my new avatar if you've kept up with recent news). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC Tiger Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 1 hour ago, crockett said: Since I'm bored... all Teslas... Not sure how that compares other than the fact that Tesla has issues too. I certainly won't argue with THAT. Tesla is just......different. They are somewhere between brilliant and not having a ******* clue what they are doing. In some ways their cars are neat - but I'm not ready to buy one. Plus they're hella expensive. Story goes that Musk showed off his new process to some execs from the automotive industry, thinking he was being innovative with how lean it was. They came back with two binders of regulations that cars have to meet. It was kind of eye opening for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC Tiger Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 1 hour ago, crockett said: It won't compete at all. The McLaren Senna is yet another lame bi-turbo V8 with 4 liters. The AMG will be much lighter (100 to 200 kgs), has over 1050 HP, which is 250 more, and half of the power is stemming from electric engines which do have much higher torque numbers. The AMG is as close to an F1 car, as we have seen yet. The aero of the AMG is on an entirely different level. It will murder the Senna on any road course track. Also, the Senna is largely based on the McLaren 720S. While the 720 is a capable car, its just a clone. I just became aware of the Senna's existence last night (or what it was - I knew a car by that name was coming out). It looks like McLaren went down the Lotus road with stripping out everything they could, then put on brakes from hell and active aero. Supposedly it is (when it ran) the fastest street car on every course where it has been tested. The fact that AMG came in even lighter is scary. How are they cutting that much weight? We have to be getting close to the asymptote for weight on a performance car. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
janice6 Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 In all fairness to manufacturers that use high tech batteries, many times when fire is involved with their products it isn't their fault. Sometimes, but not always. The problem with Battery technology Is that all effort is to get the highest current density into the smallest package, at the lowest cost. This is an admirable goal, however power is energy, and energy produces heat, the higher amount of energy the greater the heat produced. To make batteries smaller, all the effort is in making the insulator between poles thinner to reduce size, and increasing the surface area of the cells to produce greater power (energy). Surface area within a battery cell is Amperes. Making the insulator between poles of the battery thinner to make the cell smaller, means that the electrical stress on the insulator gets higher and higher. Electrical stress can produce physical stress and that physical stress can cause the insulator to physically breakdown and cause a short within the cell body. Increasing the surface area within the cell, while holding the outside dimensions the same, results in very, very, thin cells with tremendous surface area. A battery can fail if anywhere on this cell surface a failure in the insulator occurs and produced an internal short. With damn near an infinite surface area, (think very porous, many holes and structures like a sponge), the chance of a failure is evident. The present day reliability of high current density batteries is fantastic, considering the physical construction requirements. Not perfect, but amazingly high. Battery heating also accelerates the chemical action taking place within the cell. An exothermic reaction is when heat is produced and the heat in turn causes an increase in the normal chemical reaction, which in turn causes more heat. This could be described as an avalanche effect. That is, the normal production of heat energy during the use of the battery, can under some instances, cause additional heating which causes more heating, and on and on. Pretty soon the heat being produced exceeds the physical/mechanical properties of the components of the battery, and now the battery starts to fail by shorting out due to the breakdown of the insulators. One cell fails and produces enough heat to cause the cell in close proximity to fail, which in turn adds to the heat until a large number of cells are overheated and shorting out. Most battery operated products pack a lot of high density cells close together to make the total power pack physically smaller, because the consumer wants a small compact portable product. One horsepower is defined as 746 Watts of electrical power. When you pack enough batteries together tightly to produce, for example 500 horsepower you need a total of 373,000 Watts, or 373 Kilowatts. This is with no allowance for any losses. The actual Wattage capability would have to be more than this in the real case. To put this in perspective, a typical home (my perspective) has 220 Volts @200 Amps service. This is equivalent to 44,000 Watts. Damn near 1/10th of the power needed to produce 500 horsepower. The point here, is that if a car had 500 horsepower produced by electrical batteries, the amount of current is amazing and the total energy is impressive! Since your house electrical power is provided for by the utility, the problem of handling this much power and it's potential for failure, is the utilities problem, and not yours. So you don't see the difficulties of managing this energy. Up till recently, most batteries (dry cell/ Alkaline, etc.) were very inefficient, and the current density produced was such that when they failed from an internal problem, they didn't produce heat at catastrophic levels like the high tech batteries of today. The most energy generally available to most battery powered products is provided by Lithium Batteries. They provide the highest energy/current density for the lowest cost in todays products. The 18650 rechargeable Lithium batteries used in many electric cars are similar in size and characteristics to the same 18650 lithium cell that you and I use in many of our portable electrical devices. Cars like Tesla use thousands of lithium cells all cross connected in series and parallel, to produce the necessary voltage and current to drive the vehicle. When you put thousands of rechargeable Lithium cells into a very compact package, you can visualize the potential of one or more batteries failing and causing many of the rest to fail, resulting in an electrical fire. The fire then may not be caused by the product itself, but by the batteries, produced by a different manufacturer and supplied to the vehicle manufacturer. Yes, the vehicle manufacturer specifies the package size, but he has nothing to do with the battery Technology or manufacturing. So when an electrical vehicle burns up, it may not be related to the vehicle manufacturer, but to the battery manufacturer. However, the demand for the product, drives the production and the production drives the battery manufacturer for lower cost, higher energy density, higher reliability. We haven't made a failsafe product yet, but we try. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moshe Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 For power tools I always preferred Dewallt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC Tiger Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 10 minutes ago, Moshe said: For power tools I always preferred Dewallt. We used Dewalt drills at my former employer. In their defense we ran the hell out of them - but they kept breaking on us. Housing failures. If I made my living with a drill I'd go Milwaukee or Ridgid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crockett Posted January 18, 2019 Author Share Posted January 18, 2019 (edited) 45 minutes ago, SC Tiger said: I just became aware of the Senna's existence last night (or what it was - I knew a car by that name was coming out). It looks like McLaren went down the Lotus road with stripping out everything they could, then put on brakes from hell and active aero. Supposedly it is (when it ran) the fastest street car on every course where it has been tested. The fact that AMG came in even lighter is scary. How are they cutting that much weight? We have to be getting close to the asymptote for weight on a performance car. The minimum weight permissible for a F1 car is only 702 kg (1,548 lb), including the driver, and they are all at that limit. They could build much lighter which is why they have this mandatory minimum in place. Formula one is the pinnacle of automobile development, and the US is not part of it. And I hate that fact. Benz (and Audi, and BWM) has additionally many decades of DTM racing experiences on the books, again there is nothing comparable on US soil. https://www.dtm.com/en/starting-page Edited January 18, 2019 by crockett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crockett Posted January 18, 2019 Author Share Posted January 18, 2019 Tesla stock now down over 13%. In ONE day. They are toast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyzz Kydd Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, crockett said: You need to pull up sarcasm. Also, where did I say that? So far I count fiveoboy and Jammersix. Zero substance to the topic, or utter bull****. SC Tiger posting a burned car and AK_Stick making a useless comment regarding worshiping German manufacturing is also trolling, while smoothly hiding it with at least some related content. Those go hand in hand with past postings, same on GT. To say that I am not handy would be a vast understatement. I own very few ‘tools’. Having said that, I agree with Crockett. The tools that I do own are high quality. Since I view guns as tools the same applies to them. No Rossi’s, no Taurus, definitely none of the ‘Remlins’. My reloader is a Dillon, pricier yes, but quality with a lifetime no BS guarantee. The same with gunsmith work, every bit of gunsmithing I’ve had done was done by a smith widely viewed as the best in the country and came with a lifetime guarantee. One day, hopefully not too soon, I’ll pass these things down to my kids and they’ll get decades of use from them. Edited January 18, 2019 by Wyzz Kydd 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crockett Posted January 18, 2019 Author Share Posted January 18, 2019 56 minutes ago, janice6 said: In all fairness to manufacturers that use high tech batteries, many times when fire is involved with their products it isn't their fault. Sometimes, but not always. The problem with Battery technology Is that all effort is to get the highest current density into the smallest package, at the lowest cost. This is an admirable goal, however power is energy, and energy produces heat, the higher amount of energy the greater the heat produced. To make batteries smaller, all the effort is in making the insulator between poles thinner to reduce size, and increasing the surface area of the cells to produce greater power (energy). Surface area within a battery cell is Amperes. Making the insulator between poles of the battery thinner to make the cell smaller, means that the electrical stress on the insulator gets higher and higher. Electrical stress can produce physical stress and that physical stress can cause the insulator to physically breakdown and cause a short within the cell body. Increasing the surface area within the cell, while holding the outside dimensions the same, results in very, very, thin cells with tremendous surface area. A battery can fail if anywhere on this cell surface a failure in the insulator occurs and produced an internal short. With damn near an infinite surface area, (think very porous, many holes and structures like a sponge), the chance of a failure is evident. The present day reliability of high current density batteries is fantastic, considering the physical construction requirements. Not perfect, but amazingly high. Battery heating also accelerates the chemical action taking place within the cell. An exothermic reaction is when heat is produced and the heat in turn causes an increase in the normal chemical reaction, which in turn causes more heat. This could be described as an avalanche effect. That is, the normal production of heat energy during the use of the battery, can under some instances, cause additional heating which causes more heating, and on and on. Pretty soon the heat being produced exceeds the physical/mechanical properties of the components of the battery, and now the battery starts to fail by shorting out due to the breakdown of the insulators. One cell fails and produces enough heat to cause the cell in close proximity to fail, which in turn adds to the heat until a large number of cells are overheated and shorting out. Most battery operated products pack a lot of high density cells close together to make the total power pack physically smaller, because the consumer wants a small compact portable product. One horsepower is defined as 746 Watts of electrical power. When you pack enough batteries together tightly to produce, for example 500 horsepower you need a total of 373,000 Watts, or 373 Kilowatts. This is with no allowance for any losses. The actual Wattage capability would have to be more than this in the real case. To put this in perspective, a typical home (my perspective) has 220 Volts @200 Amps service. This is equivalent to 44,000 Watts. Damn near 1/10th of the power needed to produce 500 horsepower. The point here, is that if a car had 500 horsepower produced by electrical batteries, the amount of current is amazing and the total energy is impressive! Since your house electrical power is provided for by the utility, the problem of handling this much power and it's potential for failure, is the utilities problem, and not yours. So you don't see the difficulties of managing this energy. Up till recently, most batteries (dry cell/ Alkaline, etc.) were very inefficient, and the current density produced was such that when they failed from an internal problem, they didn't produce heat at catastrophic levels like the high tech batteries of today. The most energy generally available to most battery powered products is provided by Lithium Batteries. They provide the highest energy/current density for the lowest cost in todays products. The 18650 rechargeable Lithium batteries used in many electric cars are similar in size and characteristics to the same 18650 lithium cell that you and I use in many of our portable electrical devices. Cars like Tesla use thousands of lithium cells all cross connected in series and parallel, to produce the necessary voltage and current to drive the vehicle. When you put thousands of rechargeable Lithium cells into a very compact package, you can visualize the potential of one or more batteries failing and causing many of the rest to fail, resulting in an electrical fire. The fire then may not be caused by the product itself, but by the batteries, produced by a different manufacturer and supplied to the vehicle manufacturer. Yes, the vehicle manufacturer specifies the package size, but he has nothing to do with the battery Technology or manufacturing. So when an electrical vehicle burns up, it may not be related to the vehicle manufacturer, but to the battery manufacturer. However, the demand for the product, drives the production and the production drives the battery manufacturer for lower cost, higher energy density, higher reliability. We haven't made a failsafe product yet, but we try. Over 50% thermal energy, and it's not happening in a Tesla. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
janice6 Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 6 minutes ago, crockett said: Over 50% thermal energy, and it's not happening in a Tesla. Personally, I believe the best choice all around is the Hybrid drive system. This allows you considerable distance since you are carrying your battery charger along with you. then you have the advantage of bursts of energy when needed and some of your power systems get to "relax" while they are not necessary. The comment of around 400 telemetry inputs is interesting. While designing a fiberoptic Tactical Aircraft Bus system I had to include 2,000 power/platform telemetry channels for monitoring and control of the basics flight systems of the aircraft. Cars are getting to be like advanced tactical aircraft in that the majority of the money is going to be in the systems and not the platform. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fiveoboy01 Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 2 hours ago, crockett said: So far I count fiveoboy and Jammersix. Zero substance to the topic, or utter bull****. Jammer's post was certainly substance related to the topic, unlike your reply to him. Hypocrite. Maybe you should tattle again and see if it works this time. Crying-ass victim, LOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crockett Posted January 18, 2019 Author Share Posted January 18, 2019 1 minute ago, fiveoboy01 said: Jammer's post was certainly substance related to the topic, unlike your reply to him. Hypocrite. Maybe you should tattle again and see if it works this time. Crying-ass victim, LOL. Go mow your yard, boi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fiveoboy01 Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 Such an angry little man. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rizzo Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 19 hours ago, crockett said: Maybe I haven't been clear enough in the past. You don't know **** about tools. **** off troll. Well, that tears it. I don’t have to tolerate this type of offensive trash troll-posting in this otherwise outstanding forum! ? I’M GONNA MENTION ERIC BY NAME AND DEMAND HE DO SOMETH- ...oh, wait... ? 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigGiantShaft Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 All the personal attacks, it’s iust too much for my thin skinned self. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crockett Posted January 18, 2019 Author Share Posted January 18, 2019 36 minutes ago, Rizzo said: Well, that tears it. I don’t have to tolerate this type of offensive trash troll-posting in this otherwise outstanding forum! ? I’M GONNA MENTION ERIC BY NAME AND DEMAND HE DO SOMETH- ...oh, wait... ? Useless troll number 5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crockett Posted January 18, 2019 Author Share Posted January 18, 2019 25 minutes ago, BigGiantShaft said: All the personal attacks, it’s iust too much for my thin skinned self. Make that 6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crockett Posted January 18, 2019 Author Share Posted January 18, 2019 41 minutes ago, fiveoboy01 said: Such an angry little man. That's the tool showing up every other months bitching around. Did you curb your car again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigGiantShaft Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 1 minute ago, crockett said: Make that 6. Sorry not enough people jumped to jerk you off over your $400 Dremel. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crockett Posted January 18, 2019 Author Share Posted January 18, 2019 7 minutes ago, BigGiantShaft said: Sorry not enough people jumped to jerk you off over your $400 Dremel. Why don't you start another toolbag thread like this one... you'd fit right in... wait... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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