Police Cops Shoot/Kill Wrong Man

[steve4102]

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/mattvespa/2018/12/02/trevor-noah-the-second-amendment-isnt-for-black-people-n2536845?utm_source=thdaily&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=nl&newsletterad=&bcid=f3b32cb9739f7ac823837210e9d3eaf4&recip=27116010

There was a tragic shooting in Alabama over Black Friday. Two people were wounded and one person killed. The deceased was first reported to be the shooter; Hoover Police declared that in a statement. It turned out that wasn’t the case. He wasn’t he shooter (via NYT?

 

An Alabama police officer fatally shot a 21-year-old black man on Thursday night who the police initially said shot at least one person at a mall near Birmingham, turning a Thanksgiving holiday shopping scene into chaos.

But on Friday the police said evidence suggests that the man actually was not the gunman and that the true gunman remained at large.

The Hoover Police Department said on Twitter that the man who was killed, Emantic Fitzgerald Bradford Jr., “may have been involved in some aspect” of an altercation at the mall, the Riverchase Galleria in Hoover, Ala., that preceded the shooting.

But, they said, he “likely did not fire the rounds” that struck an 18-year-old man as they had originally indicated. Another victim, a 12-year-old girl, was an “innocent bystander,” the police said. Both were hospitalized but their conditions on Saturday were unavailable.

“We regret that our initial media release was not totally accurate, but new evidence indicates that it was not,” the police said, adding that the conclusion was based on interviews with witnesses and “critical evidentiary items.”

Is this tragic? Yes. This is a total fumble by the police—and similar incidents are equally egregious. If you have to define me on this issue, yes, I would be what you would call a law and order conservative. I support law enforcement to the hilt, but I also excoriate them for when they misbehave or charged with straight up murdering people. Walter Scott and Laquan McDonald are two other instances where the police went way beyond the use of force and killed people—and those officers were brought up on charges. Both officers either plead out or were found guilty of murder charges, and rightfully so. The footage from both shootings is horrific. 

[ASH]

it 'll buff right out , nothing to see here

[PATCHMAN]

Tragic.  But a lesson here for CCWers in a still-active-shooting-scene.  

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2018/11/26/police-change-explanation-again-after-killing-black-man-they-mistook-an-active-shooter/?utm_term=.05a3beba9709

[steve4102]

HOOVER, Ala. - A privately-commissioned autopsy shows Emantic Bradford Jr. was shot in the back by Hoover police...

https://whnt.com/2018/12/03/alea-hoover-police-department-say-they-will-not-release-any-evidence-including-body-cam-footage-in-mall-shooting-investigation/

 

 

[Mike]

I read on one of the news stories that the dead guy was armed and had his gun in his hand...……………… BUT it's been over a week and we have not seen any video showing the dead guy pointing a gun at somebody. It gets very tiring to see the same crap over and over and the same people always sticking up for them.

 

Here is one from almost a year ago and not a single cop saw the inside of a cell. Multiple cops fired at an UNARMED suspect, then they all claim that she was armed yet the weapon magically disappeared. At least one cop missed and killed a child inside a trailer, nothing but excuses. 

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/kameron-prescott-family-demands-justice-child-killed-police-schertz-texas/

 

The one from May of this year in MI where a cop killed an open carrier, nothing but excuses from that one as well. The double standard gets old.

https://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2018/05/police_wont_confirm_if_dashcam.html

 

There are many more but these two I have been watching to see if the cops actually do anything.

 

 

[PATCHMAN]

6 hours ago, Mike said:

I read on one of the news stories that the dead guy was armed and had his gun in his hand...……………… BUT it's been over a week and we have not seen any video showing the dead guy pointing a gun at somebody. It gets very tiring to see the same crap over and over and the same people always sticking up for them.

OK, cops respond to a persons-shot call, to a still-active-shooting scene.   Sees guy with gun in hand running away from the responding cops.  But no video has been released showing him to be acting dangerously?   What if there is no video, period?    

FYI, based on their own investigation done following this tragic incident, that agency has already acknowledge that the guy might not have had anything to do with shooting the 2 victims.  He was, tragically, an unidentified CCWer with a gun in his hand, at a still active shooting scene.  

 

Edited December 5, 2018 by PATCHMAN

[Mike]

9 hours ago, PATCHMAN said:

OK, cops respond to a persons-shot call, to a still-active-shooting scene.   Sees guy with gun in hand running away from the responding cops.  But no video has been released showing him to be acting dangerously?   What if there is no video, period?    

FYI, based on their own investigation done following this tragic incident, that agency has already acknowledge that the guy might not have had anything to do with shooting the 2 victims.  He was, tragically, an unidentified CCWer with a gun in his hand, at a still active shooting scene.  

 

Running with a gun is brandishing, BIG ******* DEAL. It is not OK to kill somebody that is not a threat. 

I didn't say "acting dangerously" either, I said "pointing a gun at somebody". Those of us not licking cop balls all the time know the difference, because one doesn't deserve a ******* bullet in the back.

 

"He was, tragically, an unidentified CCWer with a gun in his hand, at a still active shooting scene. " 

Can you honestly say that with a straight face? I threw up a little after reading it.

 

 

 

 

[ASH]

go read  up on someones  posts   and at another site ,  its a pattern  folks are used to .  we just ..  and rumors are some jobs are made  up .

Edited December 5, 2018 by ASH

[PATCHMAN]

12 hours ago, Mike said:

Running with a gun is brandishing, BIG ****ING DEAL. It is not OK to kill somebody that is not a threat. 

I didn't say "acting dangerously" either, I said "pointing a gun at somebody". Those of us not licking cop balls all the time know the difference, because one doesn't deserve a ****ing bullet in the back.

 

"He was, tragically, an unidentified CCWer with a gun in his hand, at a still active shooting scene. " 

Can you honestly say that with a straight face? I threw up a little after reading it.

 

"Running with a gun is brandishing, BIG ****ING DEAL."

If, to you, responding to multiple 9-1-1 calls to a still active, 2 persons-shot job, and in the chaos seeing someone brandishing a gun is not a "BIG ****ING DEAL" to you, then god bless you.  It's good that god watches over babies and fools.    

Yes, I get that you're behind the safety of your bulletproof computer keyboard.   

 

 

Edited December 6, 2018 by PATCHMAN

[Mike]

9 minutes ago, PATCHMAN said:

"Running with a gun is brandishing, BIG ****ING DEAL."

If, to you, responding to multiple 9-1-1 calls to a still active, 2 persons-shot job, and in the chaos seeing someone brandishing a gun is not a "BIG ****ING DEAL" to you, then god bless you.  It's good that god watches over babies and fools.    

Yes, I get that you're behind the safety of your bulletproof computer keyboard.   

 

 

On what ******* planet is brandishing a offense that shooting is justified?

I'll wait?

[PATCHMAN]

8 hours ago, Mike said:

On what ****ing planet is brandishing a offense that shooting is justified?

I'll wait?

In a still chaotic, still active shooting scene where two people have already been shot and an unidentified person with a gun in hand running away and not heeding orders to stop/drop his weapon?  I guess on no planet...

 

     

Edited December 6, 2018 by PATCHMAN

[Mike]

3 minutes ago, PATCHMAN said:

In a still chaotic, still active shooting scene where two people have already been shot and an unidentified person with a gun in hand running away and not heeding orders to stop/drop his weapon?  I guess on no planet...

 

     

It would be nice if stupid people could understand that "orders" don't mean anything to the average person in that type of situation.

 

If I have done nothing wrong and hear somebody yelling (In a mall full of screaming/running people) to stop, drop my gun as I'm running AWAY FROM THE DANGER and thinking he must not be talking to me as I've done nothing wrong. Then you get shot in the back and your family has to deal with badge bunnies making up excuses why it is not the cops fault, what a great system we have. I mean why would a cop take responsibility that he fucked up when boot lickers make excuses for them?

 

 

Fact: If they can't handle the job, they should go work as a plumber, instead of having badge bunnies making excuses for them to allow them to wreak more havoc on the public.

 

 

 

[PATCHMAN]

19 minutes ago, Mike said:

It would be nice if stupid people could understand that "orders" don't mean anything to the average person in that type of situation.

 

If I have done nothing wrong and hear somebody yelling (In a mall full of screaming/running people) to stop, drop my gun as I'm running AWAY FROM THE DANGER and thinking he must not be talking to me as I've done nothing wrong. Then you get shot in the back and your family has to deal with badge bunnies making up excuses why it is not the cops fault, what a great system we have. I mean why would a cop take responsibility that he ****ed up when boot lickers make excuses for them?

 

 

Fact: If they can't handle the job, they should go work as a plumber, instead of having badge bunnies making excuses for them to allow them to wreak more havoc on the public.

 

All I'm hearing is yadda, yadda, yadda... from the safety of hiding behind a computer keyboard.     

[PATCHMAN]

55 minutes ago, Mike said:

On what ****ing planet is brandishing a offense that shooting is justified?

I'll wait?

 

46 minutes ago, PATCHMAN said:

In a still chaotic, still active shooting scene where two people have already been shot and an unidentified person with a gun in hand running away and not heeding orders to stop/drop his weapon?  I guess on no planet...

 

     

 

What planet are you at?  

[Mike]

14 minutes ago, PATCHMAN said:

All I'm hearing is yadda, yadda, yadda... from the safety of hiding behind a computer keyboard.     

I can be in your living room by Friday morning if you grow a pair and send me the address.

I'll ask again, on what planet is it legal to shoot somebody in the back that is ONLY BRANDISHING while running away from you?

 

[PATCHMAN]

34 minutes ago, Mike said:

I can be in your living room by Friday morning if you grow a pair and send me the address.

I'll ask again, on what planet is it legal to shoot somebody in the back that is ONLY BRANDISHING while running away from you?

 

I guess I should be impressed by your keyboard bravado?  

[Eric]

Guys, please keep it civil. I don’t want threads here devolving into this sort of thing. No threats and no name calling, ok? Thanks. 

[willie-pete]

1 hour ago, Mike said:

I can be in your living room by Friday morning if you grow a pair and send me the address.

I'll ask again, on what planet is it legal to shoot somebody in the back that is ONLY BRANDISHING while running away from you?

 

Not in SC, at least.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/07/us/michael-slager-sentence-walter-scott.html

[crockett]

Besides the legal standpoint and if you cherish your life, if you as a concealed carrier engage in self defense and hear police arriving, let alone being asked to stop and drop your weapon, you better do so quickly and correctly. My concealed carry license course was offered by an ex LEO, and he made this point very clear, repeatedly.

Police often don't know who the good and the bad guys are, let alone when just arriving. A potentially bad guy - in possession of a firearm - and running away from police is very well a threat to others down the road.

While we as civilians have a right to defend ourselves, we usually can't shoot legally an attacker who is removing himself and the IMMINENT threat from the scene, police actually does have the duty to engage a fleeing and armed subject. That's a huge difference and misconception when comparing carrying civilians with LEOs. And if this suspect is likely to kill others down the road - especially after shooting at humans - shooting him (or her) in the back may very well be justified.

We live in a society with some 400 million firearms in private hand. Police can't afford to wait for the next shot. They have to assume that everybody could be armed. The right to bear (and carry) arms comes with a HUGE responsibility. While I'm not a fan of gun regulations per-se, I wouldn't mind if training and legal knowledge would be mandatory for everybody who wants to carry in public. As a matter of facts, every carrier should show an ongoing interest in related laws and training, without any regulation.

Just my 2 cents.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 6, 2018 by crockett

[RenoF250]

2 hours ago, Mike said:

I can be in your living room by Friday morning if you grow a pair and send me the address.

I'll ask again, on what planet is it legal to shoot somebody in the back that is ONLY BRANDISHING while running away from you?

 

The truth is in the middle.  He should not be running with a gun in his hand but it does not excuse the cops shooting him in the back.  Unfortunately we are still stuck with humans for cops and they make mistakes.  None of us were there and we don't even have good facts.  There do seem to be too many cops that shoot first and ask questions later, I would think they could train that out of them a bit better.  That said, I don't want them getting shot because they have to be shot at first.

[PATCHMAN]

13 hours ago, Mike said:

Running with a gun is brandishing, BIG ****ING DEAL. It is not OK to kill somebody that is not a threat. 

I didn't say "acting dangerously" either, I said "pointing a gun at somebody". Those of us not licking cop balls all the time know the difference, because one doesn't deserve a ****ing bullet in the back.

 

"He was, tragically, an unidentified CCWer with a gun in his hand, at a still active shooting scene. " 

Can you honestly say that with a straight face? I threw up a little after reading it.

 

 

OK, to get back on track with this thread...

"Running with a gun is brandishing, BIG ****ING DEAL."

So, if, to you, responding to multiple 9-1-1 calls to a still active shooting scene where 2 persons have already been shot, and in the chaos seeing someone brandishing a gun is not a "BIG ****ING DEAL" to you, then god bless you.    

In a still chaotic, still active shooting scene where two people have already been shot and an unidentified person with a gun in hand running away and not heeding orders to stop/drop his weapon?  I guess that's just pesky details...    

EDITED to ADD: As already pointed out, a civilian has the luxury of not getting involved, of not having to act, of turning away.  Responding LEOs didn't have that luxury.  And yes, action also carries with it more risks than inaction.    

Edited December 6, 2018 by PATCHMAN

[Mike]

10 hours ago, crockett said:

Besides the legal standpoint and if you cherish your life, if you as a concealed carrier engage in self defense and hear police arriving, let alone being asking to stop and drop your weapon, you better do so quickly and correctly. My concealed carry license course was offered by an ex LEO, and he made this point very clear, repeatedly.

Police often don't know who the good and the bad guys are, let alone when just arriving. A potentially bad guy - in possession of a firearm - and running away from police is very well a threat to others down the road.

While we as civilians have a right to defend ourselves, we usually can't shoot legally an attacker who is removing himself and the IMMINENT threat from the scene, police actually does have the duty to engage with a fleeing and armed subject. That's a huge difference and misconception when comparing carrying civilians with LEOs. And if this suspect is likely to kill others down the road - especially after shooting at humans - shooting him (or her) in the back may very well be justified.

We live in a society with some 400 million firearms in private hand. Police can't afford to wait for the next shot. They have to assume that everybody could be armed. The right to bear (and carry) arms comes with a HUGE responsibility. While I'm not a fan of gun regulations per-se, I wouldn't mind if training and legal knowledge would be mandatory for everybody who wants to carry in public. As a matter of facts, every carrier should show an ongoing interest in related laws and training, without any regulation.

Just my 2 cents.

 

 

 

 

What you are describing is shoot first ask questions later.

In the mall shooting, the cop didn't know who was doing the shooting, right?  

So how does he know that the guy he just killed was a danger to anybody?

Responsibility for their actions should be a qualification for police, but more and more that is disappearing, just like this situation.

[Mike]

10 hours ago, RenoF250 said:

The truth is in the middle.  He should not be running with a gun in his hand but it does not excuse the cops shooting him in the back.  Unfortunately we are still stuck with humans for cops and they make mistakes.  None of us were there and we don't even have good facts.  There do seem to be too many cops that shoot first and ask questions later, I would think they could train that out of them a bit better.  That said, I don't want them getting shot because they have to be shot at first.

Where I live the cops kill the wrong people regularly and get away with it. That is one reason I am so sick of seeing people like patchman licking their boots so often.

With that said, you say the truth is in the middle, ok with that in mind, where is the middle? We have a dead guy on one side and a guy on paid vacation on the other, where is the middle in this situation?

I agree with not wanting cops to get shot, but at the same time they mow down more innocent people every year so something needs to change.

[Mike]

4 hours ago, PATCHMAN said:

 

OK, to get back on track with this thread...

"Running with a gun is brandishing, BIG ****ING DEAL."

So, if, to you, responding to multiple 9-1-1 calls to a still active shooting scene where 2 persons have already been shot, and in the chaos seeing someone brandishing a gun is not a "BIG ****ING DEAL" to you, then god bless you.    

In a still chaotic, still active shooting scene where two people have already been shot and an unidentified person with a gun in hand running away and not heeding orders to stop/drop his weapon?  I guess that's just pesky details...    

EDITED to ADD: As already pointed out, a civilian has the luxury of not getting involved, of not having to act, of turning away.  Responding LEOs didn't have that luxury.  And yes, action also carries with it more risks than inaction.    

Let us examine the "luxury of not getting involved" you are talking about.

Guy is in a mall where people are getting shot, people are screaming, running, what should he do? Common sense saying be prepared to shoot at somebody trying to kill you and run AWAY from the source of the shots, right? He was doing that and YOUR HERO killed him.

The dead guy was about as NOT INVOLVED as he could be, your own words say he was running away and you haven't provided anything that shows he was threatening anybody.

Can I count on you being involved in seeing to it that cop is charged appropriately for the death he caused?

 

Action vs inaction? Guy NOT being a threat and running AWAY, in this situation inaction would have be the better thing to do, as we still have a dead guy on one side and a paid vacation cop on the other. 

[steve4102]

Quote

In their initial statement on Friday, the police said uniformed officers who were providing security at the mall “encountered a suspect brandishing a pistol and shot him.” It was not clear whether the officers believed Mr. Bradford fired or intended to fire before he was killed.

The "Initial Statement" has been amended, as in Bradford was the shooter to, no he was not the shooter.  We have yet to hear whether or not he was actually "brandishing' his firearm.

Definition of Brandishing. 

"The deliberate Display of a firearm with the intent to intimidate".

Does anyone here actually believe that a man running away could be "brandishing" a firearm?

He may have had it in his hand, but that is not "brandishing".

If the police used this term, they are full of ****, but it the media used this term, par for the course.