Joined the Best Millimeter Club

[Borg warner]

1 hour ago, crockett said:

 

Many don't load the ten to 200 to 230 gr anymore. Since UnderWood showed some stubborn people how it's done, many reloader focus on penetration, hence velocity.

I did a **** ton of bullet pulldowns. Blue dot, Long shot, AA7 and AA9 is all old school, for 230gr at best.

Buy and try some of the new powders like CFE Pistol, Alliant Sport Pistol and LOVEX powders. By the way LOVEX D036-03 is not fast, it is past X-800. X-800 is a terrible powder, it spikes quickly.

10mm 100gr, flying at 1,825 FPS is the new standard. You won't find any Blue dot, Long shot, AA7 or AA9 in it. I looked. With an electronic microscope. And compared with my stocked powders as well as the FBI smokeless powder photo database.

https://www.underwoodammo.com/products/10mm-auto-100-grain-xtreme-defender?variant=7865934512185

 

My standard bullet weight for the 10mm is 180 grains and I get good velocities with Blue dot and longshot (both more than 1300 fps) and for the heavier 200 grain XTP's I like AA9 and I can duplicate the original Norma load with a maximum charge of AA9 (1200 fps) and I get excellent accuracy and AA9 is a flash suppressed powder which loads to nearly 100 percent density. 

 I don't see any point in going any lighter in the 10mm than 165 grains. Any less projectile weight than that, then all you're doing is trading mass and sectional density for velocity.  As far as sectional density, a 40 caliber round ball weighs 96 grains. A 100 grain 40 caliber bullet is essentially a roundball with a stubby little truncated one on one end. Sectional density and mass has a greater effect on penetration than does velocity. That's why an arrow travels at a velocity of only 350 fps can penetrate into the vitals of the largest North American game and not just because of sectional density but because of the projectile's mass. a hunting arrow with the broad head and the shaft combined weighs close to 500 grains.

Your Lovex powder sounded interesting and I did manage to find load data for it along with description of LOVEX D036-03. It said, "DO36: A relatively fast burning, high density, double base, ball propellant similar to Accurate No. 5. In comparison with other our powders it is usable in most handgun cartridges."  But their load data didn't show any of their powders giving any more velocity than I get with Longshot or Blue dot. It listed the LOVEX D036 powder as giving only 1181 fps with a 180 grain bullet but the DO37.2 powder which I assume is a slower powder than the DO36, did best with the 180 grain bullet, developing 1263 fps and at a lower pressure level than the DO36 load.

https://shootersworldpowder.com/reloading-guide/

[crockett]

10 hours ago, Borg warner said:

My standard bullet weight for the 10mm is 180 grains and I get good velocities with Blue dot and longshot (both more than 1300 fps) and for the heavier 200 grain XTP's I like AA9 and I can duplicate the original Norma load with a maximum charge of AA9 (1200 fps) and I get excellent accuracy and AA9 is a flash suppressed powder which loads to nearly 100 percent density. 

 I don't see any point in going any lighter in the 10mm than 165 grains. Any less projectile weight than that, then all you're doing is trading mass and sectional density for velocity.  As far as sectional density, a 40 caliber round ball weighs 96 grains. A 100 grain 40 caliber bullet is essentially a roundball with a stubby little truncated one on one end. Sectional density and mass has a greater effect on penetration than does velocity. That's why an arrow travels at a velocity of only 350 fps can penetrate into the vitals of the largest North American game and not just because of sectional density but because of the projectile's mass. a hunting arrow with the broad head and the shaft combined weighs close to 500 grains.

Your Lovex powder sounded interesting and I did manage to find load data for it along with description of LOVEX D036-03. It said, "DO36: A relatively fast burning, high density, double base, ball propellant similar to Accurate No. 5. In comparison with other our powders it is usable in most handgun cartridges."  But their load data didn't show any of their powders giving any more velocity than I get with Longshot or Blue dot. It listed the LOVEX D036 powder as giving only 1181 fps with a 180 grain bullet but the DO37.2 powder which I assume is a slower powder than the DO36, did best with the 180 grain bullet, developing 1263 fps and at a lower pressure level than the DO36 load.

https://shootersworldpowder.com/reloading-guide/

 

Different goals. All my 10mm firearms serve one major purpose: barrier penetration in home defense, much like the idea behind the .357SIG or the five-seven. And that requires speed over mass. If I wanted a fat and slow slug in pistol size, I'd upload some .45 ACP.

LOVEX powders are rather new to the US and I don't use any current load data. UnderWood started using LOVEX before they became available in retail quantities. I contacted the manufacturer many times asking for consumer offerings and they finally started distribution in the US not too long ago.

LOVEX is made by: Explosia a.s.  in the Czech Republic

Email: sds@explosia.cz

My loads are based on +P / +P+ bullet pull-downs, and then uploaded to even higher velocities, for example pushing a 90gr XP .380 ACP at 1,350 FPS out of my G42, which is 150 over UW's +P load. LOVEX reacts with a rather huge spread at the end of the pressure curve, and that's when CFE Pistol and Sport Pistol take over.

There was definitely a major change in recent smokeless powder development.

Edited October 21, 2018 by crockett

[Glocks4Freedom]

15 hours ago, Borg warner said:

I've never tried it, but Ramshot True blue is similar in burn rate to Blue dot and that's where it got it's name but I've never tried it,  But Ramshot Enforcer is about the same burnrate as AA9 and I would think it would be better for 454 Casull.

Here's a burn rate chart showing the different western powders;

http://www.reloadammo.com/ramshot-burnrate2.htm

Agree with the Enforcer for .454- it's much slower than TB. I just have a few #'s of the latter and will like to try in 10mm.

 

Thanks

[Borg warner]

9 hours ago, Glocks4Freedom said:

Agree with the Enforcer for .454- it's much slower than TB. I just have a few #'s of the latter and will like to try in 10mm.

 

Thanks

It should work good with 165-180 grain bullets since it's the same approximate burn rate as Blue dot.

[Borg warner]

9 hours ago, crockett said:

 

Different goals. All my 10mm firearms serve one major purpose: barrier penetration in home defense, much like the idea behind the .357SIG or the five-seven. And that requires speed over mass. If I wanted a fat and slow slug in pistol size, I'd upload some .45 ACP.

LOVEX powders are rather new to the US and I don't use any current load data. UnderWood started using LOVEX before they became available in retail quantities. I contacted the manufacturer many times asking for consumer offerings and they finally started distribution in the US not too long ago.

LOVEX is made by: Explosia a.s.  in the Czech Republic

Email: sds@explosia.cz

My loads are based on +P / +P+ bullet pull-downs, and then uploaded to even higher velocities, for example pushing a 90gr XP .380 ACP at 1,350 FPS out of my G42, which is 150 over UW's +P load. LOVEX reacts with a rather huge spread at the end of the pressure curve, and that's when CFE Pistol and Sport Pistol take over.

There was definitely a major change in recent smokeless powder development.

For home defense, I'm curious to know in what situation would barrier penetration be important? Most people don't want bullets penetrating walls or doors in home defense situations. That's why hollowpoints are usually preferable for home defense.

The original Norma load for the 10mm drove a 200 grain FMJ at 1200 fps. that would give you plenty of barrier penetration and a 200 grain 10mm bullet isn't exactly what you'd call fat and slow. and underwood loads a 200 grain FMJ to 1250 fps. I'd actually like to see penetration tests using ballistics gel done between high velocity lightweight bullets and medium (not slow) velocity heavy bullets. I think that the light high velocity bullet would slow down pretty fast when met with resistance and the momentum of the heavier bullet would carry it further, or that the results might actually be pretty much equal, but only actual testing would prove one to be better than the other or show that it was just two different approaches to accomplish the same goal.

 

[Glocks4Freedom]

10 minutes ago, Borg warner said:

For home defense, I'm curious to know in what situation would barrier penetration be important? Most people don't want bullets penetrating walls or doors in home defense situations. That's why hollowpoints are usually preferable for home defense.

The original Norma load for the 10mm drove a 200 grain FMJ at 1200 fps. that would give you plenty of barrier penetration and a 200 grain 10mm bullet isn't exactly what you'd call fat and slow. and underwood loads a 200 grain FMJ to 1250 fps. I'd actually like to see penetration tests using ballistics gel done between high velocity lightweight bullets and medium (not slow) velocity heavy bullets. I think that the light high velocity bullet would slow down pretty fast when met with resistance and the momentum of the heavier bullet would carry it further, or that the results might actually be pretty much equal, but only actual testing would prove one to be better than the other or show that it was just two different approaches to accomplish the same goal.

 

I don't think penetration would be a problem for these...

http://www.doubletapammo.net/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=158

230 gr of hard cast lead is a bitch!

[crockett]

43 minutes ago, Borg warner said:

For home defense, I'm curious to know in what situation would barrier penetration be important? Most people don't want bullets penetrating walls or doors in home defense situations. That's why hollowpoints are usually preferable for home defense.

The original Norma load for the 10mm drove a 200 grain FMJ at 1200 fps. that would give you plenty of barrier penetration and a 200 grain 10mm bullet isn't exactly what you'd call fat and slow. and underwood loads a 200 grain FMJ to 1250 fps. I'd actually like to see penetration tests using ballistics gel done between high velocity lightweight bullets and medium (not slow) velocity heavy bullets. I think that the light high velocity bullet would slow down pretty fast when met with resistance and the momentum of the heavier bullet would carry it further, or that the results might actually be pretty much equal, but only actual testing would prove one to be better than the other or show that it was just two different approaches to accomplish the same goal.

 

 

It depends on your personal situation and surrounding. I live alone, nobody has access to my house, and all outer walls are made of concrete blocks. I have watched countless self defense videos, for example almost all of the close to 1,000 videos from the Active Self Protection channel and 600 videos from the PoliceActivity channel.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsE_m2z1NrvF2ImeNWh84mw

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXMYxKMh3prxnM_4kYZuB3g

Invaders and attackers often resort to hiding behind barriers, giving them the opportunity to pull out a gun, or reload, or take aim. With the right caliber, firearm, projectile and load, you can indeed take out an aggressor who is hiding behind a fridge, wall, door, car door, and many other common barriers, while leaving you with enough penetration once the barrier was passed. That won't happen with your average HP, getting stuck in basically everything.

I posted this video several times. Just in case you haven't seen it. And no, the old school hard cast (@Glocks4Freedom) doesn't cut it.

 

 

 

And yes, the G40 with my own Lehigh 140gr Xtreme Penetrator uploads is my home defense system. 64 rounds of true security, coming in at 1,600 FPS.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 22, 2018 by crockett

[Borg warner]

52 minutes ago, crockett said:

 

It depends on your personal situation and surrounding. I live alone, nobody has access to my house, and all outer walls are made of concrete blocks. I have watched countless self defense videos, for example almost all of the close to 1,000 videos from the Active Self Protection channel and 600 videos from the PoliceActivity channel.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsE_m2z1NrvF2ImeNWh84mw

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXMYxKMh3prxnM_4kYZuB3g

Invaders and attackers often resort to hiding behind barriers, giving them the opportunity to pull out a gun, or reload, or take aim. With the right caliber, firearm, projectile and load, you can indeed take out an aggressor who is hiding behind a fridge, wall, door, car door, and many other common barriers, while leaving you with enough penetration once the barrier was passed. That won't happen with your average HP, getting stuck in basically everything.

I posted this video several times. Just in case you haven't seen it. And no, the old school hard cast (@Glocks4Freedom) doesn't cut it.

 

 

 

And yes, the G40 with my own Lehigh 140gr Xtreme Penetrator uploads is my home defense system. 64 rounds of true security, coming in at 1,600 FPS.

 

 

 

 

 I agree that It depends on your personal situation and surroundings.  And the only barriers in my house are non insulated Drywall 2x4 stud partition walls and hollow core doors and my cheap refrigerator has a pretty thin door. And all the furniture in my living room is wicker with thin cushions.

I've seen that video but he isn't comparing the "Penetrator" ammo to anything that comes close to Buffalo bore, Underwood or Doubletap full power heavy bullet ammo. He's comparing it to an Armscor 180 grain plinking load and not heavier bullet full power ammo,

What kind of magazine extensions are those?

 

 

[crockett]

13 minutes ago, Borg warner said:

 I agree that It depends on your personal situation and surroundings.  And the only barriers in my house are non insulated Drywall 2x4 stud partition walls and hollow core doors and my cheap refrigerator has a pretty thin door. And all the furniture in my living room is wicker with thin cushions.

I've seen that video but he isn't comparing the "Penetrator" ammo to anything that comes close to Buffalo bore, Underwood or Doubletap full power heavy bullet ammo. He's comparing it to an Armscor 180 grain plinking load and not heavier bullet full power ammo,

What kind of magazine extensions are those?

 

 

 

I did my own testing. It is the machined copper core design that enables this massive penetration, all others are slower, deform and lose energy in the process. The flutes force bodily fluids and flesh outward, creating massive temporary cavities that literally pulverize organs, rather then just cutting through. I also posted the video showing the results in a deer several times.

They are KRISS .45 ACP extensions, modified to work with G20 / G29 / G40. I have been pushing KRISS to develop a 10mm version but they just keep promising hot air now for some 4 years. I keep hearing the same excuses every time I mail them or talk to them at the NRA show.

Modding one extension takes about 30 minutes with a dremel and an hour of test firing and adjusting.

 

 

Edited October 22, 2018 by crockett

[c10bonanza]

Holy smokes.  I just had 1k rounds of 10mm delivered.   Compared to the 9mm I am used to,  this stuff is heavy! 

[PNWguy]

On 10/20/2018 at 12:33 PM, crockett said:

Alliant Sport Pistol, N320 and LOVEX D036-03.

 

 

That was just a random load example. I have stocked:

Rainier 10mm 135gr PFN
Rainier 10mm 165gr PFN
Rainier 10mm 180gr PHP

The Rainier 165gr PFN is my go to plinking round.  Used to load it with 6.8gr Bullseye for ever. Dirty but very accurate.

Power pistol was the go too powder for hot 10mm rounds for a long time.  9.6gr of PP pushes many 180gr projectiles like the XTP past 1400 FPS @ 800 plus ftLBS.-lb.

I buy all of my match bullets for my 35 and 29 from these guys...

https://www.rmrbullets.com/

They are located 50 miles south of me in Idaho and the owner shoots in the same GSSF match that I do.  He is an amazing shot and the perfect 500 score is pretty common with him.

The only thing that irks me is that only the 9mm bullets are available off-the-shelf locally.  I have to order online for the .40 bullets.

But, they are accurate and edged out Berry's for accuracy in my guns.

 

[crockett]

24 minutes ago, PNWguy said:

I buy all of my match bullets for my 35 and 29 from these guys...

https://www.rmrbullets.com/

They are located 50 miles south of me in Idaho and the owner shoots in the same GSSF match that I do.  He is an amazing shot and the perfect 500 score is pretty common with him.

The only thing that irks me is that only the 9mm bullets are available off-the-shelf locally.  I have to order online for the .40 bullets.

But, they are accurate and edged out Berry's for accuracy in my guns.

 

 

Nice. They are good for an additional 100 FPS compared to my Rainiers. They have a limit of 1,200, which is not much for 10mm. Heck even my .380s go faster.

I put the link in my bookmark list for the next time around. Thank you.

[c10bonanza]

On 11/9/2018 at 6:34 PM, c10bonanza said:

Holy smokes.  I just had 1k rounds of 10mm delivered.   Compared to the 9mm I am used to,  this stuff is heavy! 

700 rounds of Sellier & Bellot 10mm “lite” plinking loads.  300 rounds of mixed Sig 180gr V-Crown, Underwood 200gr hard cast, and Underwood 200gr XTP “real” loads.  

Planning on shooting some tomorrow after a morning of quail hunting.  I can’t wait!

[Texas48]

That’s a great price.  Cheapest I’ve seen is 30¢ a round, and usually closer to 40¢
for those of you who roll their own, what is your cost per round, and is that a full power load and a ~.40S&W load?

My cost per round with new brass RMR 165 gr Bullets is .28 per round. Once fired priced drop to .14. 10 gr power pistol 1300 ft/sec


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[t4terrific]

Thanks!  I'll have to check my LGS to see if I can find it cheaper than thirty cents a round.  I'm anxious to shoot it--I installed Trijicon HD XRs on it last night and think I will really like them.

You won’t find anything cheaper than 30 cents per ($15 a box) unless you get lucky. That’s a good price and SG is usually the cheapest on 10mm fmj.