Why the decline of .40 S&W?

[Boogieman]

1 hour ago, Borg warner said:

The other advantage to a 10mm revolver is that one gun can actually be chambered for THREE different cartridges rather than just two but unless money is no object you will probably have to reload to shoot the third cartridge which is the 10mm Magnum.

I bet the new Ruger Blackhawk in 10mm would handle the 10mm Magnum without breathing heavy.

[Citra47]

On ‎9‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 10:13 PM, c10bonanza said:

That’s really telling.  

Not really.

[c10bonanza]

17 minutes ago, Citra47 said:

Not really.

How so?

[Borg warner]

1 hour ago, Boogieman said:

I bet the new Ruger Blackhawk in 10mm would handle the 10mm Magnum without breathing heavy.

The Blackhawk is massively strong. Only trouble with the SA Blackhawk is that it can't use moon clips and different length rimless cartridges have toi headspoace on the case mouth so you have to have a different cylinder for each cartridge. Lipsey's is selling a Blackhawk with 10mm and 40 S&W cylinders but If you wanted a 10mm magnum you'd either have to get another cylinder or re-chamber either the 10mm or the 40 S&W cylinder for 10mm magnum.

People have rechambered the N-frame S&W 10mm's for 10mm magnum but the GP-100 is basically only and L-frame as opposed to an N-frame so you'd be stressing the gun a little to chamber it for a magnum even though Rugers are generally over-built.

Edited September 13, 2018 by Borg warner

[Citra47]

1 hour ago, c10bonanza said:

How so?

Look at the history of the 40 S&W.  At the time of the Miami shoot out, the FBI was carrying the 9mm and some revolvers. They both seriously failed to perform well that day.  The FBI realized they needed to get something more powerful and after a quick study chose the 10mm.  I happen to love the 10mm, but it's not for everyone.  Many agents could not handle the recoil so the FBI went back to the study table and in the end, S&W simply shortened the 10mm case a bit and the .40 S&W was born.  Not only was the recoil less than the 10mm, but the shortened overall length of the 40 S&W allowed it to be carried in handguns designed for the 9mm.  Most of the agents were happy because they could wrap their hands around a higher capacity gun. People with small hands still had problems with the new guns.

There were very few growing pains. One was some manufacturers needed to strengthen their 9mm frames a bit to handle the .40 S&W. In the case of GLOCK, Gen. 3 really cured the problem and Gen 4 reduced the grip similar to former SF models so complaints about grips being too large pretty much went away. 

(How so?)   The problem I have with what you were reading concerns only the second part. "Its loaded with downsides and has few upsides".  Think about that statement a moment.  We are talking about a caliber, .40 S&W, that has been in use for many years, not only by the FBI who testing & fully vetted the cartridge, but also thousands of LEO's all over the U.S., and thousands of civilian's with carry permits or not. With that many handguns in use and having fired millions of rounds of ammunition over many, many years - very few problems have cropped up and those that did were satisfactorily eliminated after a bit of study. 

I'm at a loss to figure out what "Its loaded with downsides and has few upsides" means.

Edited September 13, 2018 by Citra47

[crockett]

23 hours ago, Borg warner said:

In the 10mm, if it's a Glock, you can shoot the cheaper .40 S&W ammo and it will function 100% and there is no difference in accuracy.

Not correct. Flatter trajectory equals better accuracy.

Typical max projectile weights at typical max chamber pressure load:

[Borg warner]

2 minutes ago, crockett said:

Not correct. Flatter trajectory equals better accuracy.

Typical max projectile weights at typical max chamber pressure load:

Not necessarily.  38 special wadcutters can be more accurate than a 357 magnum even though the 357 magnum has a much flatter trajectory. And .308's are often more accurate than 300 magnums. Also if one cartridge has more bullet drop than another that doesn't necessarily mean that you will have more vertical spread, it just means that one cartridge will impact the target lower and you might need to hold higher on the target to hit the same spot, 

[5pointstar78]

Modern technology into bullet development has eliminated any reason Law Enforcement carried the caliber. Furthermore when the 40 S&W was actually put to the hands of Law Enforcement most had difficulty shooting it as well as the 9mm or 45 acp. The recoil is significantly more than either the 9mm and 45 acp. Effecting double taps on target and shooting in general. The was echoed around the LEO community. Civilians just eat it up because of a lot of great marketing. Like I said before it's a good caliber but it bring anything to the table that the 9mm cant fill for the average shooter as a defensive round.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327AZ using Tapatalk

[crockett]

21 minutes ago, Borg warner said:

Not necessarily.  38 special wadcutters can be more accurate than a 357 magnum even though the 357 magnum has a much flatter trajectory. And .308's are often more accurate than 300 magnums. Also if one cartridge has more bullet drop than another that doesn't necessarily mean that you will have more vertical spread, it just means that one cartridge will impact the target lower and you might need to hold higher on the target to hit the same spot, 

Nope. Wadcutters are sometimes more accurate because of their bullet shape and material. You can load .357 Mag wadcutters as well, eliminating the .38 S wadcutter advantage.

In a comparable setting, the 10mm is more accurate, because having to hold higher adds a variable, hence inconsistency, resulting in inaccuracy.

[Moeman]

I like 40 , a lot of the snappier stuff is it has tougher specs so range ammo in 9 manytimes is weakiling ammo. When one jumps up the SD ammo things get closer. And the truncated come shape of 40 makes for realizable hollow point feeding in all guns. 

 

Yes, I own 9,45,44 mag ets... but 40 is a nice balance.

Edited September 13, 2018 by Moeman

[Borg warner]

30 minutes ago, crockett said:

Nope. Wadcutters are sometimes more accurate because of their bullet shape and material. You can load .357 Mag wadcutters as well, eliminating the .38 S wadcutter advantage.

In a comparable setting, the 10mm is more accurate, because having to hold higher adds a variable, hence inconsistency, resulting in inaccuracy.

If you look at that chart you posted there is no difference in bullet drop between the 10mm and the 40 at 25 yards and that is the distance most people shoot handguns at. The 10mm is better at longer distances but even the 10mm starts to drop beyond 50 yards and is going to require some hold-over beyond that,

 

[crockett]

6 hours ago, Borg warner said:

If you look at that chart you posted there is no difference in bullet drop between the 10mm and the 40 at 25 yards and that is the distance most people shoot handguns at. The 10mm is better at longer distances but even the 10mm starts to drop beyond 50 yards and is going to require some hold-over beyond that,

 

 

Your statement didn't specify any ranges, it was all-inclusive, and that wasn't correct. Many if not most people can't tell the difference in accuracy between 9mm, .40 and .45 when they punch holes in paper at 7 or 15 yards. That doesn't change the fact that the 10mm is being used for hunting at up to 100 yards. An additional drop of 3 inches makes very well a difference..

 

 

 

 

[Fnfalman]

All I know is that if it ain’t 9 or .45, it ain’t squat. 

I would make the exception for 10mm chambered wherlguns. 

[c10bonanza]

10 hours ago, Citra47 said:

(How so?)   The problem I have with what you were reading concerns only the second part. "Its loaded with downsides and has few upsides".

My comment that it was telling referred to his experience in rejection of trades in .40 cal.

I don't think it is disputed that .40 is on the decline.  Lots of posters have articulated this round's downsides.  There are certainly upsides to it as well, but from what I've gathered in this thread those upsides have been outweighed due to bullet design and performance improvements in 9mm ammo.

[Boogieman]

1 hour ago, crockett said:

Your statement didn't specify any ranges, it was all-inclusive, and that wasn't correct. Many if not most people can't tell the difference in accuracy between 9mm, .40 and .45 when they punch holes in paper at 7 or 15 yards. That doesn't change the fact that the 10mm is being used for hunting at up to 100 yards. An additional drop of 3 inches makes very well a difference..

Amen.  Though I can give a paper target hell at well over 100 yards with any 10mm's. I have to admit that I'm personally not comfortable harvesting an animals at over 50 yards.  Not with my eyes.  Not with iron sights.  As you said, bullet drop is always a concern.  Less is always better.  Recently my 1006 has become my favorite hog gun.

 

[Borg warner]

5 hours ago, crockett said:

 

Your statement didn't specify any ranges, it was all-inclusive, and that wasn't correct. Many if not most people can't tell the difference in accuracy between 9mm, .40 and .45 when they punch holes in paper at 7 or 15 yards. That doesn't change the fact that the 10mm is being used for hunting at up to 100 yards. An additional drop of 3 inches makes very well a difference..

 

You'll get no argument from me that the 10mm is the best of the semi-auto pistol cartridges. I have both a G23 in 40 S&W and G20SF in 10mm and the G20 is my all time favorite Glock, but the G23 is easier to carry concealed. For Revolver cartridges I really don't have any one favorite except maybe the 41 magnum. But I've reloaded a lot of 38 special and 357 mag, 44 Special and 44 mag and have a soft spot in my heart for the 45 Colt.

Here's a picture of my G20SF. Not long after the picture was taken I added tru-glo sights and filed down the bumps on the finger grooves a little more. I will never sell this gun.

Edited September 13, 2018 by Borg warner

[Boogieman]

1 minute ago, Borg warner said:

Here's a picture of my G20SF. Not long after the picture was taken I added tru-glo sights and filed down the bumps on the finger grooves a little more. I will never sell this gun.

What kind of barrel is that?

[Borg warner]

 

24 minutes ago, Boogieman said:

What kind of barrel is that?

It's a stainless 6 inch Lone Wolf Barrel that I cut back to 5 inches because I like the way the gun balances better and comes out of the holster faster. And even though it's only a half inch longer than the factory barrel it still develops about +- 30fps more velocity. I had it Cerekoted black because I don't like two-tone guns. I also have a 6 inch Lone Wolf 40 S&W barrel for it but I don't use that barrel much anymore because I learned that you can shoot 40 out of the 10mm barrel. But I occasionally use the 6 inch barrel when I want more velocity for longer ranges. An extra 100 fps gives near-10mm ballistics out of the 40

When I was new to Glocks I replaced all my factory barrels with LW barrels because I thought that you couldn't shoot cast bullets out of polygonal barrels. Then I learned that it wasn't a problem as long as you clean the barrel well after shooting cast. The Korean Lone Wolf barrels were generally pretty good. Some people had problems with them but I never did. My G23 has a Lone wolf 357 Sig barrel and a KKM 9mm conversion barrel. I really like the KKM barrel.

Edited September 13, 2018 by Borg warner

[PNWguy]

On 9/12/2018 at 10:18 PM, Moeman said:

I like 40 , a lot of the snappier stuff is it has tougher specs so range ammo in 9 manytimes is weakiling ammo. When one jumps up the SD ammo things get closer. And the truncated come shape of 40 makes for realizable hollow point feeding in all guns. 

 

Yes, I own 9,45,44 mag ets... but 40 is a nice balance.

Very astute point.  The problem is keyboard commandos who rarely shoot anything other than WWB they buy at WalMart and then loudly proclaim that the recoil of the .40 S&W makes it harder to get back on target and bullet technology makes the 9mm equal.

Isn't the same bullet technology also being applied to the .40 S&W?  Hmmm...

I shoot in indoor GSSF every month.  I fire from 100 to 150 rounds in competition.  I started with a 10mm G29, then went to a .40 S&W conversion barrel.  Then I went with a G19 in 9mm.

I handload and make my match loads as soft and accurate as possible.  When firing at 25yds off-hand, the accuracy of a given load is paramount.  My criteria is 2" or less at 25yds with a rest and plenty of time to concentrate.  That translates to about 8-10" off-hand at 25yds under pressure.  

I loaded up some softball 9mm loads and they did around 3-4" with a rest at 25yds.  I had to load them hotter to get them around 2.5" at 25yds.  By the time they were accurate enough, they had the same snap and recoil as my .40 S&W match loads.  There was no advantage.

So now, I shoot a G35 with 6.2 grains of Ramshot Silhouette behind a 165gr plated RMR bullet.  Soft shooting and very accurate.  I get in the 490's most every match but still haven't achieved the magic 500.

But that's my perspective in the world of match shooting.  Most people shoot 9mm, so what do I know?

For all of the ballistic tests showing how 9mm defensive loads are nearly as effective as .40 S&W, I don't recall ever finding a study on the felt recoil of those hot rod defensive loads in today's sub-compact 9mms...

 

 

[PNWguy]

Nevermind...

 

Found a couple of articles that actually measured the recoil of various defensive calibers and .40 S&W is significantly higher than 9mm in nearly every instance.

Hmmm...  I'll still stick with .40 S&W for matches, however.

http://www.handgunsmag.com/competition/recoil-comparison-pistol-competition-cartridges/

 

Summary
The .45 ACP and .40 S&W produce similar amounts of recoil, with the .45 ACP having a little more at typical factory velocities. But it’s a small difference, and any difference will depend on the specific ammunition due to variation in the gunpowder and it’s power level. The .38 Super and 9mm Luger have noticeably less recoil than the bigger calibers.

When the .45 ACP and .40 S&W are loaded to the same power factor with caliber-typical bullets (230- and 180-grain), their recoil is indistinguishable as measured by Ransom Rest movement, but the .45 has slightly more recoil force. The 115-grain bullets in the 9mm Luger produced marginally more recoil than 130-grain bullets in the .38 Super at the same power factor.

When comparing the recoil of the same bullet weight in different calibers, the smaller caliber produces less recoil, which is greatly influenced by requiring less gunpowder.

Read more: http://www.handgunsmag.com/competition/recoil-comparison-pistol-competition-cartridges/#ixzz5R7HqA8Be

 

https://chuckhawks.com/handgun_recoil_table.htm

 

Edited September 14, 2018 by PNWguy

[Borg warner]

1 hour ago, PNWguy said:

Nevermind...

 

Found a couple of articles that actually measured the recoil of various defensive calibers and .40 S&W is significantly higher than 9mm in nearly every instance.

Hmmm...  I'll still stick with .40 S&W for matches, however.

http://www.handgunsmag.com/competition/recoil-comparison-pistol-competition-cartridges/

 

Summary
The .45 ACP and .40 S&W produce similar amounts of recoil, with the .45 ACP having a little more at typical factory velocities. But it’s a small difference, and any difference will depend on the specific ammunition due to variation in the gunpowder and it’s power level. The .38 Super and 9mm Luger have noticeably less recoil than the bigger calibers.

When the .45 ACP and .40 S&W are loaded to the same power factor with caliber-typical bullets (230- and 180-grain), their recoil is indistinguishable as measured by Ransom Rest movement, but the .45 has slightly more recoil force. The 115-grain bullets in the 9mm Luger produced marginally more recoil than 130-grain bullets in the .38 Super at the same power factor.

When comparing the recoil of the same bullet weight in different calibers, the smaller caliber produces less recoil, which is greatly influenced by requiring less gunpowder.

Read more: http://www.handgunsmag.com/competition/recoil-comparison-pistol-competition-cartridges/#ixzz5R7HqA8Be

 

https://chuckhawks.com/handgun_recoil_table.htm

 

That's some useful data, but from my own experience the difference in PERCEIVED recoil between different types of ammo in a G23 and a G19 side by side is almost indistinguishable and certainly nothing to make a big fuss over unless you are extremely recoil sensitive which some people are who have never shot an actual MAGNUM handgun.

After years of shooting magnum revolvers in 41 mag, 44 mag, and 454 Casull, my perspective is that unless the recoil causes some degree of actual physical PAIN, it isn't worth mentioning. Also more people have probably shot 367 magnums than any other magnum handgun. But a 357 magnum, while it makes a lot of noise doesn't really kick much in a GP 100 or a K or L frame S&W and in an N-frame actual recoil  just isn't there. In an airweight J-frame however, that is capable of inflicting real pain. 

There's a big difference between perceived recoil and measured recoil.

Note that in the chart that it says that out of a 1.5 pound handgun a 180 grain bullet produces more recoil than a 165 grain bullet which seems logical. But most people say that the heavier 180 grain bullets in the 40 SEEM to recoil less than the lighter bullets. However, the chart also shows that the 155 grain bullet when driven at 1200 fps actually does produce more measured recoil than the 180. Personally I prefer heavier bullets in just about any caliber meaning 180's in the 10 and the 40, and 230's in the 45 auto, but I think the 9mm might have hit the sweet spot with the 124 grain bullet.

I also think that Glocks with their wide grips accommodating a double column magazine actally help to spread the recoil over a larger area of the web of the hand and that the polymer frame actually absorbs some of the recoil which is why to me, even the Glock 20 with the hottest underwood loads doesn't have any actual recoil worth mentioning.

 

Edited September 14, 2018 by Borg warner

[PNWguy]

3 minutes ago, Borg warner said:

I also think that Glocks with their wide grips accommodating a double column magazine actally help to spread the recoil over a larger area of the web of the hand and that the polymer frame actually absorbs some of the recoil which is why to me, even the Glock 20 with the hottest underwood loads doesn't have any actual recoil worth mentioning.

I know the G35 and the G19 have nearly the same grip width at 1.30" and 1.26" respectively, but the G29 is a bit wider at 1.38".  

Shooting the .40 S&W out of my G29 feels like shooting 9mm out of the G19.

Shooting .40 S&W out of the G35 with "normal" powered loads feels significantly hotter than my other .40 S&W pistols.  Odd.

But yeah, my hottest loaded 10mm loads for wolf and bear defense feel remarkably comfortable.   My wolf and bear defense loads out of my Ruger Blackhawk Bisley in .45 Colt are painful.  I wear a glove when shooting it...

[Cougar_ml]

On 9/12/2018 at 10:47 PM, Borg warner said:

If you look at that chart you posted there is no difference in bullet drop between the 10mm and the 40 at 25 yards and that is the distance most people shoot handguns at. The 10mm is better at longer distances but even the 10mm starts to drop beyond 50 yards and is going to require some hold-over beyond that,

 

What I got from looking at the chart is that there is 3 inches more drop at 100 yards when using a 25 yard zero.  Before the 25 yard mark the 40 curve is just slightly higher than the 10mm.

All things being equal, the bullet with lower velocity will drop in a shorter distance due to the effects of gravity over time.

[Cougar_ml]

As for the recoil argument, felt recoil is subjective.  Everyone's hands are different, and different people have different experience.

The most powerful handgun I fire in my G20.4

I've fired the glock 22,23, and one of the 357sig models, I forget which.  357sig had a lot sharper impulse, but the 40 with cheap ammo was still not as pleasant for me to shoot as the g20 with hot underwood loads.  

[Cougar_ml]

Speaking of the 40S&W guns being cheaper on the market right now, are there any good options for a suppressor host?  Since I already have everything to reload the 10mm, and have a bunch of free .40 brass, I'm tempted to pick up a .40 is I can find one at a reasonable price, though I think I would prefer a fixed barrel.  Any suggestions?