Why the decline of .40 S&W?

[Brown Hawk]

19 minutes ago, Citra47 said:

I entirely agree with you but the thread was on "why the decline of the .40S&W".  To be honest, given my choice under hardball only circumstances, 10mm would be my 1st choice because of penetration, .45 ACP would be my 2nd choice, .40 S&W 3rd and ---- 9mm would be last. 

On the hardball only point, I was going by WWII vets who complained that captured Lugers, etc., too often passed through without causing much damage, while the .45’s would cause more damage and not pass through so often.  

In a self defense mode, I worry more about over penetration given what a body can do to a bullet’s trajectory after it hits.  Given modern rounds, even a .380 works well.  But that is all personal choice.  

As for why the .40 is declining, there is the lemming effect, because the army, Marines, and police are moving to 9mm.  I think the other reason is that the .40 was a compromise between the 9 and 10, leaving both sides unhappy.  With the ammo, and some of the pistols.  

 

Hawk

[Citra47]

7 hours ago, Brown Hawk said:

On the hardball only point, I was going by WWII vets who complained that captured Lugers, etc., too often passed through without causing much damage, while the .45’s would cause more damage and not pass through so often.  

In a self defense mode, I worry more about over penetration given what a body can do to a bullet’s trajectory after it hits.  Given modern rounds, even a .380 works well.  But that is all personal choice.  

As for why the .40 is declining, there is the lemming effect, because the army, Marines, and police are moving to 9mm.  I think the other reason is that the .40 was a compromise between the 9 and 10, leaving both sides unhappy.  With the ammo, and some of the pistols.  

 

Hawk

I was able to shoot several bring back 9mm's when in high school.  Few of the vet's had much good to say about the 9mm accept when fired from submachineguns. Most of them were not very accurate because the barrels were pretty well shot out. A couple lugers were pretty accurate and fun to shoot, but I would still take the .45 ACP. 

Edited September 11, 2018 by Citra47

[Borg warner]

On ‎9‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 7:50 PM, c10bonanza said:

I’ve always been a 9mm guy since I bought my first pistol 15 years ago.   I’m considering purchasing a 10mm as a woods gun for Colorado (I go fishing/camping there 3-4 times a year).  In doing so I keep coming across threads talking about swapping in a .40 barrel for cheaper shooting.  

Long story short, why the decline in .40 popularity in the past few years?  Seems like it was the only handgun ammo that was actually available during the last ammo shortage.  

The FBI originally wanted something more powerful than the 9mm after the Miami shootout so they went to the 10mm. but the 10 was TOO powerful and required a larger size gun than the 9mm. So then they came up with the 40 which was basically a downloaded 10mm that would fit in the same platform as the 9mm. So for a while they though they had the perfect gun until ammo companies went from 115 grains to 124 grains in the 9 ands developed better controlled expansion projectiles for the 9 and eventually the FBI and many police agencies went back to the 9 because it had slightly less recoil and was easier for new recruits, especially women, to shoot,

In the time that many local law agencies and government agencies used the 40 it worked very well and there is nothing wrong with the cartridge itself. But there are those who absolutely hate it and on one hand they call it the 40 S&W aka the "40 Short & Weak" but at the same time they say the recoil is so bad that if you fire a full magazine it will tear your hand clean off.

I actually like the 40. The first Glock I even bought was a G19 and then I got a G23 in 40 caliber which is the same size gun. I've shot both guns side by side and there is no recoil to speak of from either one and it's hard for me to tell the difference between the two. And the 40 can do one thing that the 9mm can never do and that's launch a 180 grain bullet at a thousand feet per  second, and if I wanted to go with "Plus+P" ammo, Underwood makes an 1100 fps load. And the fact is that the 40 is closer to the 10mm than it is the 9mm. and as far as "Modern Ammo Technology" making the 9mm equal to the 40, the exact same "Modern Ammo Technology" is available for the 40 such as the Federal HST and the Speer Gold dot.

The 40 S&W is ballistically similar to the old 38-40 Winchester that was actually  40 caliber but they named it the 38-40 so that it wouldn't be confused with the 44-40. And It's also what Skeeter Skelton and Elmer Keith originally envisioned as the "41 Police" which became the 41 Magnum. that gun, the model 58 M&P, was originally sold with a "police" load that drove a 200 grain lead wadcutter at 1000 fps. Back in 1965 a friend of mine bought a model 58 an da couple of boxes of the "Police" ammo and we both shot the gun and it was very pleasant to shoot. But it was very UN-pleasant to shoot with the magnum ammo with those skinny service grips. I have a model 58 today and I put a Tyler T-grip adaptor on it and that helps with the magnum ammo and the 210 grain silvertips are not bad.

[The Biggsly]

I have bought several 40s over the years. I always fall back to the 9mm. My son loves 40s and has several.

[Boogieman]

11 hours ago, Borg warner said:

The FBI originally wanted something more powerful than the 9mm after the Miami shootout so they went to the 10mm. but the 10 was TOO powerful and required a larger size gun than the 9mm. 

Too powerful?  Just because I used the original Norma loadings to harvest YUGE feral hog?  And even the hollowpoints would completely penetrate through both shoulders and come out the other side?  Too powerful?  Harumph!!!  

[DieselMcBadass]

The gunstore i worked at stopped taking .40s at trade counter since so many were coming in and none were selling. Its loaded with downsides and has few upsides.

[Borg warner]

6 hours ago, Boogieman said:

Too powerful?  Just because I used the original Norma loadings to harvest YUGE feral hog?  And even the hollowpoints would completely penetrate through both shoulders and come out the other side?  Too powerful?  Harumph!!!  

The problem was not the power on the muzzle end, It was the power transmitted to the grip end. In other words too much recoil for 98 pound female agents and new recruits not used to shooting guns.  Personally I find that the recoil of a full size Glock 20 even with the original Norma equivalent loads from underwood, are nowhere near the recoil of a magnum handgun that begins with the number 4 like a 41 or 44 mag or a 454 Casull or 460 S&W.

As far as I'm concerned, recoil isn't even worth mentioning unless is causes a certain amount of actual pain. I've shot Delta elites, S&W 1006's, and Glock 20's. and I think that of the three, the polymer frame and the wide double column grip of the Glock absorb recoil better than other guns and I think the S&W 1006's were what the FBI used. But the other problem the FBI had was that the guns that chambered the 10mm were too big and the 40 could be chambered in the smaller 9mm platform.

The original Norma load was either a 200 grain bullet loaded to 1200 fps or a 170 grain bullet loaded to 1300 fps.  Underwood loads a 200 grain XTP to 1250 fps for 694 ft lbs or either a 180 grain XTP or bonded Gold dot at 1300 fps 676 ft lbs. Both the Underwood loads slightly exceed the Norma loads. The 10mm and the 357 Sigs are the magnums of the semi-auto pistol world but are not always loaded to their full potential. the 357 Sig comes closest and Speer loads the 124 grain Gold dot to 1375 fps 525 ft/lbs  and teh federal HST ammo is loaded to 1360 fps. But underwood loads a bonded Gold dot at 1475 fps 604 ft lbs

But most 10mm ammo load the 200 grain bullets to 1050 fps and the 180 grain to 1150. The Armscor 180 grain fmj's are only loaded to 985 fps so basically it's a 40 S&W load in a 10mm case

[5pointstar78]

The .40 S&W is a cool caliber but was only brought up because of more hype than anything. Only good thing about all of that nonsense is that it with its passing ammo and trade in guns are cheap now. But even with that I still haven't had the itch to buy one. I do just fine with my 9mm and 45 acp.

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[c10bonanza]

2 hours ago, DieselMcBadass said:

The gunstore i worked at stopped taking .40s at trade counter since so many were coming in and none were selling. Its loaded with downsides and has few upsides.

That’s really telling.  

[c10bonanza]

1 hour ago, 5pointstar78 said:

Only good thing about all of that nonsense is that it with its passing ammo and trade in guns are cheap now. 

I haven’t been looking closely, but I still see .40 priced considerably higher than 9mm.  Where are you seeing cheap .40?

[TeaDub]

32 minutes ago, c10bonanza said:

I haven’t been looking closely, but I still see .40 priced considerably higher than 9mm.  Where are you seeing cheap .40?

For plinking at the range, 40 has really started to narrow the gap with 9mm. Online there are many places. SGAmmo is one of my favorites. This is Blazer Brass for $10.95/50 as an example.

https://www.sgammo.com/product/cci/50-round-box-40-cal-cci-blazer-brass-case-180-grain-fmj-ammo-5220

[c10bonanza]

10 minutes ago, TeaDub said:

For plinking at the range, 40 has really started to narrow the gap with 9mm. Online there are many places. SGAmmo is one of my favorites. This is Blazer Brass for $10.95/50 as an example.

https://www.sgammo.com/product/cci/50-round-box-40-cal-cci-blazer-brass-case-180-grain-fmj-ammo-5220

Thanks!  Not too shabby, indeed.  Only a 2-3¢ or so more per round.  Definitely cheaper than 10mm.  Looks like plinking 10mm ammo regularly runs around 28-29¢ per round.  

[5pointstar78]

I use wikiarms, but there are a few ammo price websites.

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[Borg warner]

1 hour ago, c10bonanza said:

Thanks!  Not too shabby, indeed.  Only a 2-3¢ or so more per round.  Definitely cheaper than 10mm.  Looks like plinking 10mm ammo regularly runs around 28-29¢ per round.  

In the 10mm, if it's a Glock, you can shoot the cheaper .40 S&W ammo and it will function 100% and there is no difference in accuracy. It's just like shooting 38 specials out of a 357 magnum. But the Glock is the only semi-auto that I have ever done this with where the shorter cartridge is able to headspace on the extractor. When I foirst got my Glock 20 I bought a 40 caliber barrel for it but nowI don't bother switching barrels anymore.

And with a 40 caliber Glock 27, 23, or 22, 9mm barrels are available for shooting cheaper 9mm ammo but you will also need one 9mm magazine. nothing else needs to change.

[Will Beararms]

On 9/9/2018 at 11:09 PM, crockett said:

.40 Short & Weak was made for female FBI agents bitching about the full power tens. Compromises always suck. The 9 mm with modern loads and projectiles is adequate, easy too shoot, provides more rounds in the same package, and many pistols are perfectly concealable, even in pocket carry.

For everything else there is the ten, and it's coming back for a good reason. Better barrier penetration, better for home defense where pistol / mag size don't matter, better for handgun hunting, better for reloading, better for hot reloads - well past the none existent +P+ category, flatter trajectory / better accuracy.

The .40 was a lame compromise only the FBI asked for.

If the .40 is for women then the 9mm is for Children. 

If you live in a rural environment the 9mm, .40 and .45 are not the same. Compare the 9mm to a .40 or .45 when it comes to putting down a wild hog or other aggressive/feral animal. I live in tbe woods. I know deputies that carry .44 Magnums. I carry a .180 grain .40 all the time. The 10mm is a great choice for sure. 

[Will Beararms]

10 hours ago, 5pointstar78 said:

The .40 S&W is a cool caliber but was only brought up because of more hype than anything. Only good thing about all of that nonsense is that it with its passing ammo and trade in guns are cheap now. But even with that I still haven't had the itch to buy one. I do just fine with my 9mm and 45 acp.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327AZ using Tapatalk
 

Just hang on and see what the long term results are for the new, improved 9mm before you call the .40 hype. The .40 is guilty of a lot of things but failiure to perform is not one of them with a wide range of ammo whereas the 9mm is ammo dependent. Besides the ballistics, I like the fact .40’s and .45’s, among others were conceived and originally made in America. The .45 ACP came from an era when we fought wars to win them and didn’t care what others were doing. Our small arms outside of the MG Submachine gun series outclassed the Axis. The design build philosphy at the time was to put the enemy down not make sure everyone got a trophy at the qualifying range. 

Edited September 12, 2018 by Will Beararms

[G26S239]

2 hours ago, Borg warner said:

In the 10mm, if it's a Glock, you can shoot the cheaper .40 S&W ammo and it will function 100% and there is no difference in accuracy. It's just like shooting 38 specials out of a 357 magnum. But the Glock is the only semi-auto that I have ever done this with where the shorter cartridge is able to headspace on the extractor. When I foirst got my Glock 20 I bought a 40 caliber barrel for it but nowI don't bother switching barrels anymore.

And with a 40 caliber Glock 27, 23, or 22, 9mm barrels are available for shooting cheaper 9mm ammo but you will also need one 9mm magazine. nothing else needs to change.

I had a Delta Elite for a while. I put an EGW flat bottom FPS* and with very little radiusing on the bottom just used a Wolf 20# recoil spring no problems. I considered a 40 barrel but read of several instances where 40 didn't function well in 100 because of OAL. 

*Fitting a 45 FPS to a 10mm slide was a PITA. I used an Arkansas stone taking a bit off and trying until it cleared the 10mm ejector. It worked beautifully when finished but I don't want to do that again.

[DUBSY]

Love the 40 cal. I’m going through a revolver phase right now. Once that runs it’s course I’d like a 10mm. Most likely a Glock since I already shoot a model 22 and 23.

[DieselMcBadass]

17 hours ago, c10bonanza said:

That’s really telling.  

yeah .40 pistols and entry level ar15s are denied right off the bat

[Boogieman]

13 hours ago, G26S239 said:

I had a Delta Elite for a while. I put an EGW flat bottom FPS* and with very little radiusing on the bottom just used a Wolf 20# recoil spring no problems. I considered a 40 barrel but read of several instances where 40 didn't function well in 100 because of OAL. 

*Fitting a 45 FPS to a 10mm slide was a PITA. I used an Arkansas stone taking a bit off and trying until it cleared the 10mm ejector. It worked beautifully when finished but I don't want to do that again.

I fit the EGW flat bottom FPS to all of my 1911's that aren't 5" 45acp guns.  It did wonders for keeping my 45acp Defender and 9mm Officers locked up.  And of course it's mandatory in my 10mm guns.

I've never had an EGW product that was anything less tha excellent.

[Boogieman]

11 hours ago, DUBSY said:

Love the 40 cal. I’m going through a revolver phase right now. Once that runs it’s course I’d like a 10mm. Most likely a Glock since I already shoot a model 22 and 23.

Two birds...one stone

https://www.ruger.com/products/gp100MatchChampion/specSheets/1775.html

[DUBSY]

51 minutes ago, Boogieman said:

Two birds...one stone

I may look into that. are moon clips as easy to use as speed loaders?

[Boogieman]

52 minutes ago, DUBSY said:

I may look into that. are moon clips as easy to use as speed loaders?

A bit harder to load into the clip.  But easier to do a reload.  I have a S&W 810 already.  I'm looking for a Ruger right now.  They currently offer several revolvers in 10mm.  

[Glocks4Freedom]

3 minutes ago, Boogieman said:

A bit harder to load into the clip.  But easier to do a reload.  I have a S&W 810 already.  I'm looking for a Ruger right now.  They currently offer several revolvers in 10mm.  

Somewhat harder, but that wouldn't stop me from buying one.  I want that Match Champion in 10mm. MAC has a good video on it

 

[Borg warner]

3 hours ago, DUBSY said:

I may look into that. are moon clips as easy to use as speed loaders?

It's slower to load and unload the CLIPS but it's faster to load and unload the moon clip into and out of the gun than it is with a speedloader.

That's why some competition shooters have modified guns chambered with rimed cartridges to accept speedloaders.  Competition shooters also like the fact that moon clips keep all the brass together when it's ejected from the gun and also the cartridges eject more positively with a speedloader.

The other advantage to a 10mm revolver is that one gun can actually be chambered for THREE different cartridges rather than just two but unless money is no object you will probably have to reload to shoot the third cartridge which is the 10mm Magnum.

The 10mm Magnum is a 10mm case stretched to the length of a 41 magnum and can equal the 41 magnum in power. The 10mm AUTO can drive a 200 grain bullet at 1250 Fps but the 10mm Magnum can drive that same weight bullet at 1450 fps for 934 ft/lbs of energy. that would be an excellent hunting load for hogs, bear, and large mule deer even though it's a non-expanding bullet. It would be nice if they'd offer a Hornady XTP but that's just about the only jhp  10mm bullet that can stand up to those kinds of velocities (Edit: Reed's ammunition sells a 10mm magnum load with a 10mm Magnum 200g Hornady XTP loaded to 1620FPS (out of an 8 3/8ths" barrel) for $33.00 a box of 20.

 https://shop.reedsammo.com/10mm-Magnum-200g-Hornady-XTP-1620FPS-10MMMAG200X.htm

Doubletap sells loaded 10mm ammo but Starline makes the brass and it's really much less expensive to reload considering that the double tap ammo is $2.00 per round at $40 bucks a box of 20. The only problem with reloading it  is that there isn't a lot of load data out there for bullets heavier than 200 grains.

Reaming the cylinder chambers to 10mm magnum would allow you to shoot 40 S&W, 10mm auto, and 10mm Magnum all in the same gun.

http://www.sixguns.com/tests/tt10mag.htm

Edited September 13, 2018 by Borg warner