Why the decline of .40 S&W?

[crockett]

Proper home defense. 64 rounds of 10 mm Lehigh Xtreme Penetrator hand loads in the '+P+' +10% category out of a G40 with Ghost Ring Night Sights for super fast acquisition. Perp hides behind fridge? No problem.

 

 

 

Disclaimer: Not suggested if house is occupied by more than the gun owner and / or neighboring houses in close proximity!

Edited September 10, 2018 by crockett

[crockett]

PS: 10 mm barrier penetration...

 

 

 

[c10bonanza]

16 minutes ago, G26S239 said:

Decline? I started last year with eight 40 S&W guns and picked up another P2000sk so mine have actually increased by 12.5% since January 2017. As for the snappy recoil claims, if firing a 40 makes you flinch don't even consider an SP101 or K frame 357 magnum because either might cause PTSD.

Kudos to you.  

I never said the .40 makes me flinch.  Just curious why the .40 has fallen out of popularity in general   

I like .357 Magnum just fine.  Different purpose for me.  

[c10bonanza]

10 minutes ago, crockett said:



 

That’s a pretty sweet rig.  How accurate are the Ghost Ring sights?  I bet they are fast.  

[G26S239]

2 minutes ago, c10bonanza said:

Kudos to you.  

I never said the .40 makes me flinch.  Just curious why the .40 has fallen out of popularity in general   

I like .357 Magnum just fine.  Different purpose for me.  

That was not directed at any particular poster. The snappy description of 40 recoil has been bandied about to the point of ridiculousness. Anyone who ever fired an SP101, Security Six or Smith K frame 357 magnum with full power loads has already dealt with more felt recoil than the 40 will provide in a Glock 27 or larger gun. Since you own a 357 magnum than you have likely noticed that revolvers deliver felt recoil almost instantly where the autos, through the unlocking process and slide movement distribute it over a bit longer time frame.  

[Boogieman]

33 minutes ago, crockett said:

Proper home defense. 64 rounds of 10 mm Lehigh Xtreme Penetrator hand loads in the '+P+' +10% category out of a G40 with Ghost Ring Night Sights for super fast acquisition. Perp hides behind fridge? No problem.

 

 

 

Disclaimer: Not suggested if house is occupied by more than the gun owner and / or neighboring houses in close proximity!

Great minds think alike.  My house gun.

 

[crockett]

10 minutes ago, c10bonanza said:

That’s a pretty sweet rig.  How accurate are the Ghost Ring sights?  I bet they are fast.  

The longest visually straight line I have within my current home is only 15 yards. At that distance I can shoot you earring holes, but only after extensive training. At first my accuracy was out the window and I was about to replace them with regular night sights. Gave them another chance and experiment at the range several times. Also bought a proper pushing tool which help removing an issue I had from day one.

It's a learning curve, but much faster than red dots and no eye box.

Many have an AR 15 for home defense. I wanted a wider and heavier projectile in order to dump more kinetic energy, all while keeping the 30 round per mag capacity and the penetration. I also wanted to remove the weight, length and noise level of a rifle. This G40 is usually attached to a magnet under my desk. Much more accessible and hide-able than a rifle.

 

[Andyd]

I agree that the .40 SW is in decline by looking at the spent brass at the range that I frequent. About 12 to 15 years ago the .40 SW was probably the most used semi auto handgun cartridge in Southeast Florida by a small margin, in the last years the 9mm completely outpaced it.

 

I have a few .40 SW handguns but always found the accuracy of my G23 slightly worse than the accuracy of my G19, or the G30. With the help of my timer I also found the recoil of the G23 to slow shooting down over the 9mm. On the other hand, I really like the 357 SIG, a real niche cartridge and carry a G32, I find the recoil to more pleasant than the .40, more of a rearward push and as a reloader, I can use the same .356 bullets that I use in my 9x19 ammo.

[Collim1]

The decline is not as big as you think. It’s all the talk on the gun channels and forums, but TONS of people still own and shoot .40’s. And a majority of them aren’t going to be trading in functional .40’s just to swap calibers.

And while the FBI and a couple of large LE agencies swapped to 9mm recently, most police are still carrying .40 and probably will for years to come. 

I went to a LE training prequalification last week. Police from all over the state showed up to shoot for prequalification for a firearms class. 49 officers showed up from two dozen different agencies. All of them except me and maybe three others were shooting .40’s. Had one .45 auto shooter. I expected to see more 9mm shooters myself. 

Edited September 10, 2018 by Collim1

[c10bonanza]

4 minutes ago, Collim1 said:

The decline is not as big as you think. It’s all the talk on the gun channels and forums, but TONS of people still own and shoot .40’s. And a majority of them aren’t going to be trading in functional .40’s just to swap calibers.

And while the FBI and a couple of large LE agencies swapped to 9mm recently, most police are still carrying .40 and probably will for years to come. 

I went to a LE training prequalification last week. Police from all over the state showed up to shoot for prequalification for a firearms class. 49 officers showed up from two dozen different agencies. All of them except me and three others were shooting .40’s. I expected to see more 9mm shooters myself. 

Good to know.  I'm not LEO so I can only gauge store shelves during ammo runs and the spent brass at my range like @Andyd.  That was the basis for my assessment that .40 usage is declining.

Edited September 10, 2018 by c10bonanza

[Collim1]

10 minutes ago, c10bonanza said:

Good to know.  I'm not LEO so I can only gauge store shelves during ammo runs and the spent brass at my range like @Andyd.  That was the basis for my assessment that .40 usage is declining.

Police will be slower to adapt. Most of the people in charge now started in law enforcement when .40 was king. Myself included. They carried .40 their entire career and they aren’t likely to jump on the bandwagon. 

Then there is the money issue. They have have dozens or hundreds of functional weapons in inventory with years of service life left. They also probably have 10’s of thousands of rounds of .40 ammo in inventory. they are not likely to make a change just to change calibers. 

As aging guns start needing to be replaced some agencies will switch calibers, like mine did in November.  Some however won’t bother and will stick with .40 

it ain’t going anywhere. And what’s old is new and vise versa. .40 could have a resurgence in popularity in a few years, you never know. 

Edited September 10, 2018 by Collim1

[c10bonanza]

1 minute ago, Collim1 said:

And what’s old is new and vise versa.

Ain't that the truth.  This applies to most things, not just guns and ammo.

So, not to venture too far off the question of this thread, but having used .40 for the majority of your career and now being issued a 9mm, what's your preference?

[Boogieman]

29 minutes ago, c10bonanza said:

Good to know.  I'm not LEO so I can only gauge store shelves during ammo runs and the spent brass at my range like @Andyd.  That was the basis for my assessment that .40 usage is declining.

On the plus side there have been a lot of good deals on 40 ammo recently.  I picked up 5000 rounds of S&B for $129/1000.  The 9mm was going for $189.  It prompted me to drag out a few of my 40 cal guns that I hadn't fired in a decade.

[TeaDub]

I believe that the 40 is in decline. Why? In large part because the FBI (Famous But Incompetent) said so. Many police agencies don't have the resources to evaluate on their own, so they follow the lead of the Feds. Throw in a financial bonus of cheaper ammo costs and fewer headaches of trying to improve the training (more expense) of their weaker officers, and it's easy to understand. My own ex-agency is about to shift to the G17 after issuing G22s for nearly 20 years. Trends in the LE community impact what many civilians choose for their own usage.

I have embraced 9mm, as long as I can choose from the top handful of the newer loads. Part of that decision is platform based for me. The new, small single stack 9mms are quite compelling. I have debated picking up a Shield in 40 for more options in the larger caliber. I was pleased with it's performance in my brief exposure to the gun.

IF I ever had to choose between the two calibers, I'd likely go with 40. 

[norton]

40 minutes ago, Collim1 said:

The decline is not as big as you think. It’s all the talk on the gun channels and forums, but TONS of people still own and shoot .40’s. And a majority of them aren’t going to be trading in functional .40’s just to swap calibers.

And while the FBI and a couple of large LE agencies swapped to 9mm recently, most police are still carrying .40 and probably will for years to come. 

I went to a LE training prequalification last week. Police from all over the state showed up to shoot for prequalification for a firearms class. 49 officers showed up from two dozen different agencies. All of them except me and maybe three others were shooting .40’s. Had one .45 auto shooter. I expected to see more 9mm shooters myself. 

At my club/outdoor range I don't see much .40 cal laying on the ground.  Not like 9mm.  But it could be .40 cal shooters are more likely reloaders?

[Boogieman]

8 hours ago, crockett said:

This G40 is usually attached to a magnet under my desk. Much more accessible and hide-able than a rifle.

I recently read something from Larry Vickers where he said that he preferred a handgun over a rifle or shotgun for home defense.  A handgun is easier to shoot one handed.  This leaves the other hand free to open doors, manipulate light switches or dial a phone.

[Boogieman]

5 minutes ago, TeaDub said:

I have embraced 9mm, as long as I can choose from the top handful of the newer loads. Part of that decision is platform based for me. The new, small single stack 9mms are quite compelling. I have debated picking up a Shield in 40 for more options in the larger caliber. I was pleased with it's performance in my brief exposure to the gun.

IF I ever had to choose between the two calibers, I'd likely go with 40. 

I read that sometimes officers that have a choice, choose 40 because of departmental ammo selections.  Their department don't allow or can't afford the very best modern loadings.  A cheap 40 is probably more effective than a cheap 9mm.

[Collim1]

6 hours ago, c10bonanza said:

Ain't that the truth.  This applies to most things, not just guns and ammo.

So, not to venture too far off the question of this thread, but having used .40 for the majority of your career and now being issued a 9mm, what's your preference?

Before my law enforcement career started I was a 9mm shooter. I have always liked it. My first handgun was a Beretta 92, and that was what my experience was with before I started in police work.

 I definitely did not dislike the 40 caliber. I learned to shoot it well, and was very comfortable with its power and capacity. Now that I carry 9mm I appreciate the reduced recoil and increased capacity. With the P226 in .40 I had 37 rounds on my person. With the Glock 17 I have 52.

I also appreciate the Glock 26 as a backup  sharing the mags and holster on my belt is hard to beat.  

I do not, however, like the ammo the department selected. The Hornady 135g+P Critical Duty. It seems to have consistent performance through various barriers, but minimal expansion, even in bare gel.  I would much rather have a 124 or 147g Gold Dot. 

Edited September 10, 2018 by Collim1

[TeaDub]

2 minutes ago, Boogieman said:

I read that sometimes officers that have a choice, choose 40 because of departmental ammo selections.  Their department don't allow or can't afford the very best modern loadings.  A cheap 40 is probably more effective than a cheap 9mm.

 

That is probably true in many places. I was never displeased with ammo choices. I carried 9, 40 and 45 over my career. Mandated gun and ammo throughout. FWIW, the ammo issued was 185gr SilverTip, 115gr ISP load (Winchester +P+) and lastly 180gr Ranger in 40. The 9 and 40 have changed to Critical Duty since I retired. I prefer the earlier choices personally.

[Collim1]

6 hours ago, Boogieman said:

I read that sometimes officers that have a choice, choose 40 because of departmental ammo selections.  Their department don't allow or can't afford the very best modern loadings.  A cheap 40 is probably more effective than a cheap 9mm.

A lot of agencies provide a 40 caliber handgun and ammo, or you can choose to carry your own gun but then you have to supply your own duty rig, mags, and ammo. A lot guys will just take what’s issued.  At this point in my career I’m not very keen on spending my own money for work related gear myself  

My department is as cheap as they come, but they have always issued us a decent duty round. We carried the 165 grain gold dot in .40, and now we issue the Hornady Critical Duty. 

I said in a previous post that the critical duty is not my preference, but I can’t claim that it’s a cheap round. 

Edited September 10, 2018 by Collim1

[Brown Hawk]

9 hours ago, Citra47 said:

Let's make believe you can only get hardball. If you could still tell me .40 S&W had no advantage over 9mm at least I could have a good laugh and more ammo available.

With only hardball, I would go with a .45, as it has a larger bullet and slower speed, more liable to stay in the body than either  9 or 10.  Or a .40.  And with an unjacketed round, was more liable to mushroom.  With modern loads basically equal.  

A local detective once told a gangbanger that he wished they would go back to the 9’s.  When the kid asked why, his reply was “Because more of you die when you shoot each other with a 9.”  He explained to me that they generally bought cheap (ball) ammo and the recoil of the larger rounds caused them to miss more, and at the closer ranges they used, the speed of the round was liable to go through and not cause a lot of damage.  

I don’t think the .40 is going away, but I have seen a lot of .40 LEO turn in’s on the market lately.  

Meanwhile, if you really want me to use something in a 40, I’ll use a 40mm grenade launcher in ball Ammo.  Talk about a one hit stop!!?

Hawk

[Wyzz Kydd]

10 hours ago, crockett said:

Proper home defense. 64 rounds of 10 mm Lehigh Xtreme Penetrator hand loads in the '+P+' +10% category out of a G40 with Ghost Ring Night Sights for super fast acquisition. Perp hides behind fridge? No problem.

 

 

 

Disclaimer: Not suggested if house is occupied by more than the gun owner and / or neighboring houses in close proximity!

I'll stick with my Mossberg 930 SPX 12 gauge with Winchester PDX1 ammo for HD and my Colt Commander 1911 with 230 gr Federal Hydra-Shok for EDC.  

 

From my perspective the .40 is similar to an enduro motorcycle, a bastard stepchild of a dirt bike and a street bike, incorporating the worst of both designs and not able to keep up with either in their natural environment.

Edited September 10, 2018 by Wyzz Kydd

[Boogieman]

2 hours ago, Collim1 said:

I said in a previous post that the critical duty is not my preference, but I can’t claim that it’s a cheap round. 

Has there been any issues with the Critical Duty?  

[Collim1]

24 minutes ago, Boogieman said:

Has there been any issues with the Critical Duty?  

No issues. It functions reliably, and shoots to point of aim reasonably well.  The issue is I’m not aware of a single shooting on the street involving the critical duty. It’s just not as vetted as the gold dot. 

[Citra47]

5 hours ago, Brown Hawk said:

With only hardball, I would go with a .45, as it has a larger bullet and slower speed, more liable to stay in the body than either  9 or 10.  Or a .40.  And with an unjacketed round, was more liable to mushroom.  With modern loads basically equal.  

A local detective once told a gangbanger that he wished they would go back to the 9’s.  When the kid asked why, his reply was “Because more of you die when you shoot each other with a 9.”  He explained to me that they generally bought cheap (ball) ammo and the recoil of the larger rounds caused them to miss more, and at the closer ranges they used, the speed of the round was liable to go through and not cause a lot of damage.  

I don’t think the .40 is going away, but I have seen a lot of .40 LEO turn in’s on the market lately.  

Meanwhile, if you really want me to use something in a 40, I’ll use a 40mm grenade launcher in ball Ammo.  Talk about a one hit stop!!?

Hawk

I entirely agree with you but the thread was on "why the decline of the .40S&W".  To be honest, given my choice under hardball only circumstances, 10mm would be my 1st choice because of penetration, .45 ACP would be my 2nd choice, .40 S&W 3rd and ---- 9mm would be last. 

Edited September 10, 2018 by Citra47