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any input on Dead Foot Arms MCS?


Cougar_ml
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So some of you might remember a month or two ago I started a thread about wanting a Tavor.  I refused to make it into an impulse purchase, and instead I've been doing a lot of random research online.  

I'm sure you guys know how it goes, you start looking up one thing, it links to something not quite relevant, and you end up places you didn't expect.  

That and I ended up buying half a dozen AR lowers (2 Aero precision gen 2, 4 Anderson) on a labor day sale, and because my state is stupid and putting I1639 on the ballot despite all it's issues, and the fact that Seattle completely dominates the entire state for politics, I did decide to look into doing an AR pistol in 300bo rather than the Tavor.

 

So stumbling around the internet I came across an interesting product, and wanted to know if anyone here has any real world experience or input on it. 

https://deadfootarms.com/products/dfa-modified-cycle-system-rifle-caliber-with-right-side-folding-stock-adaptor/

 

 

My current thoughts are turning one of those lowers into a 300BO pistol (provided there is nothing on the lower making it a rifle, stupid NFA) and running this system on it with a brace instead of the stock.  Springs in it are supposedly rated for more than 50k cycles, and if you do wear them out free replacements for life.

No, I don't actually have any reason why I "need" it, but the idea of being able to make it short enough to fit in a normal backpack does sound appealing to me.  I'm just not fond of AR pistols because of how big they are with the buffer tube sticking out back, and a brace makes it even worse.  

 

So unless someone here knows of a better, more efficient system that won't break the bank I'm leaning pretty strongly towards doing this.  

So what are your thoughts?

(BTW, company says they give an unconditional warranty, including shooting a million rounds through it or blowing it up with dynamite, they'll fix/replace it no questions asked.)

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With the stock folding to the right, is it usable when folded?

Unless that folder is classified and approved by ATFE as a "brace", it can't wear a short upper without an SBR tax stamp.

Me? I'd just put a folding adapter on one of your lowers along with an SBA3 brace and call it good. Not usable folded, but that's not important to me. 

 

 

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16 hours ago, 9x19 said:

With the stock folding to the right, is it usable when folded?

With the stock folded it is fully functional, can be fired with no restrictions.

 

16 hours ago, 9x19 said:

Unless that folder is classified and approved by ATFE as a "brace", it can't wear a short upper without an SBR tax stamp.

Me? I'd just put a folding adapter on one of your lowers along with an SBA3 brace and call it good. Not usable folded, but that's not important to me. 

It doesn't come with a stock.  The one in the video just happens to be one they also make.

The folding adapter is made to accept any commercial or milspec buttstock., so you can add either your own rifle stock or brace.  I'd probably end up with the SBA3 on this setup.

 

I already have an AR-15 rifle.  it mostly just sits in the safe, as I prefer my bolt action rifle.  But I already have my bolt action so I don't really want another at the moment.

I want something more compact than either of them, but more range than my Glock 20.  My first thoughts were to get a tavor as I want something a little different than what I already have, but a lot of people said AR-15 pistol.  Not a fan too much of the pistols because of how much lost velocity there is in 5.56 and a short barrel, and with the buffer tube you're still talking a really long gun.  Most of the other options are more than I really want to spend, so I've narrowed it down to either this or the tavor in 300BO.

 

Mostly I want another gun, but I want something different than I have.  Main thoughts are basically something to fill the role of a PDW that would work in a vehicle.  This setup, with stock folded and a 9.5 inch barrel comes in right at 20 inches long, while still being fully functional.  I can also have it loaded in my vehicle if I want to (laws in my state don't allow for loaded rifles or shotguns in or on vehicles, and pistols loaded in vehicles only with CPL, which I have).  Not that I have a real need for a loaded long gun in my vehicle all the time, but it's just one more thing for me to consider.  22 cal is also not allowed for hunting deer in my state, my bolt action is heavy, and the deer here are kind of dumb (I was standing 20 feet from one in the yard earlier today yelling at it) so that's part of where the 300BO part comes in (that and a 30 cal suppressor in NFA jail at the moment)

I also don't have a huge budget for this, and I want something that I can fix myself with mostly over the counter parts if I need to (hence the AR-15 as a starting point), but these guys seem to be standing behind their stuff from what I can see, and almost everywhere I've looked it's sold out, so either it's popular, or just limited supply.  Lots of good reviews on it as well when I searched, but it's still too new for any long term testing.

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So comparing prices for stuff...

I spent $350ish to get the Dead Foot Arms MCS with folding stock adapter.  It comes with the BCG, springs, and tube needed for a functional firearm, as well as an adapter for putting a stock or brace on it that folds to the side.  I then spent another $130 for the SBA3, bringing me up to almost $500 for this part of the build.

 

Just using Brownells site for reference, the KAK shockwave brace with folding stock adapter comes in at $360.  To equal the parts above I need to add a BCG, a really cheap one is still going to run me around $100 or so (I do see one at Brownells for $75 on sale though) and that brings us up to $460ish. 

The shockwave by itself costs a lot less than the SBA3, so together I'm of the opinion that the Dead Foot MCS is the way to go.  It comes in an inch or so longer when folded but is still a fully functional weapon.  

The rest of the parts are on order, so anyone interested will find out in a few weeks when all the parts get here how it works.  

 

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So bad news.

Apparently the Aero Precision gen 2 lower receiver is not playing nice with this MCS setup.

For some reason, it comes out at about 1/16 inch too short for the bolt catch to grab the bolt face, so with an empty mag inserted it's catching on the bolt carrier instead.  If I unthread the cap on the rear that holds the spring in it does move far enough back, but it was getting dark last night by the time I got around to testing everything, so I didn't find the issue until after full dark and haven't had a chance to test it like that.

It DOES seem to properly fit and function on a DMPS lower and goes back far enough for the bolt catch to function.  

Edited by Cougar_ml
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Latest update for anyone bothering to read this.

I used a steel washer to space the MCS back approximately 0.060 inches from the lower receiver.  This seemed to be enough for it to fully function and operate the bolt catch.

Took it out, and adjusted the gas block until ejection was around 4 to 4:30, so probably the low end of what I need for now.  Loaded up a few rounds, and was ringing steel at 50 yards, brass landing with about 1 1/2 foot of each other in the 4:30 area.  If I can figure out a way for the bolt catch to work without the spacer I think I will be good.  

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I have another bolt catch on order from a different company, and enough parts to assemble one of my other lowers most of the way, so I'll probably do that just to do another comparison.  Other option is I might just grind off a little from the back of the bolt catch to give me that extra little bit I need.

 

 

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My overall impression of the Modified Cycle System so far is that it's a pretty well thought out part.  It does take just a little bit more effort to take it apart for cleaning/inspection than a standard buffer system, as you have to pull out the springs by unthreading the end cap of the system, and in reality it only shortens the AR15 by about 4 inches or so compared to an adjustable butt stock at it's shortest setting.

There is also no spring noise when cycling the action.  The springs are centered by a post in the middle of the end cap, so they have nowhere to go and nothing to rub up against.  

I'm not sure how it actually compares weight wise.  The bolt has been shortened and some mass removed from the tail, and there is no longer any buffer in the system, but the hinge mechanism is pretty beefy aluminum, and the end cap is steel.  I'm going to say it's probably just a little heavier than not having it, but not enough difference to make me care.

 

20180921_082906.thumb.jpg.4fe8ec7b62e7473e4f5df955afc1edc2.jpg20180921_082730.thumb.jpg.12e41967364fc2b81043df0369e58072.jpg

Length folded is 22.75 inches.  It's got a 10.5 inch barrel on it and the Dead Air KeyMo flash hider.  Without the flash hider it would be about 20.5 inches.

You can see the washer I'm using to space it out in the picture, so just ignore that for now.  That will go away soon one way or another.

I do like the look of the Aero Precision upper and hand guard.  I'm still able to reach the adjustable gas block with it assembled (barely) so the initial tuning was pretty easy.

 

This is actually the first AR15 I've assembled from nothing, so I'm pretty happy with how it went.  Bolt catch is only an issue with the MCS, if it were a standard bolt carrier and recoil setup it would function just fine, so I'm only minorly annoyed with it at the moment.  (total cost so far is just under $1100)

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9 minutes ago, The Biggsly said:

I like the look of it. I think it will be nice once you get it all dialed in. If the washer works, just leave it. It is an AR. It doesn't have to be pretty. lol

My only issue with the washer is it's on the alignment nub underneath the tube, and so it's not giving support at the top.  Probably not a real issue, but it's the unequal application of force that is bothering me more than anything else.

I only bought 40 rounds of factory ammo for it so far, and shot half of it. I plan to reload for it as soon as the casting mold gets here.  That and I need to make a bunch of brass.

As for pretty, I scratched it up a little when doing the assembly.  Now I don't have to worry at all about messing up the finish :)

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On a side note, all of my current magazines are magpul gen 2, with the exception of 2 brownell's mags.  

Just to be on the safe side for ammo, I have 15 Okay Industries magazines on order that should be here in a few days that will be my 300BO mags.  Hopefully this will prevent anything catastrophic from happening. I was looking for mags, comparing the ETS, Hexmag, and brownell's when I found the OKAY new version magazines at $10 each.  Hard to pass up at that price, and I can get them in black :)

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It's been a week now, still no response of any type from the company.

I sent them a second message through their website, including linking this thread to it.  

I put some more rounds through it with the steel washer spacing it, and had zero issues.  If it was the proper length to function with my lower then it would be great.  

Still hoping they get back to me soon about it so I can leave a positive review on the site I purchased it from, but if they don't within another week or so, then not so much.  

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Just got a reply from Dan M. at Dead Foot Arms.

He had a couple of questions for me about what the exact product I purchased was, which annoyed me slightly as I provided a link to the exact product, the link name provides the information he was asking for (which was whether I had ordered a pistol caliber kit or rifle caliber kit)

He also said he checked their system but didn't see my info in it, so he asked where I purchased it from, which was also pretty obvious when I provided a link to the exact item I purchased at the website I purchased it through (mildly annoyed by another question that shows he didn't really read my message)

 

The one useful thing he did say is that the buffer tube cap has a rubber washer in it (which I had already found) that isn't really necessary for the rifle kit and can be removed to give me the extra length I need for it to function.  I had already found the rubber washer but didn't want to touch it without hearing from them.  

I have removed the washer and my spacer.  Testing it by hand there is no longer any bolt catch issue.  Problem seems resolved at this time.

As long as it continues to function properly then I am sure I will remain very happy with it, but only time will tell.

 

 

Now to go start casting and powder coating some heavy lead bullets to shoot subsonic through it.

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Got another response from Dan.

The rubber washer in the end cap is specifically for the 9mm kit, but for inventory reasons they ship them all with the rubber washer in them.  Hopefully they put that in the FAQ on their homepage so other people don't deal with the same frustration as I did.

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Went out and tried it again with some cast bullets I just got the mold in for.

It seems everyone either loves or hates the Lee 230 grain 300BO mold.  

So far only 10 rounds, loaded with 12 gr of CFEBLK, at 2.220 inches length.

Without a can on it I didn't have quite enough gas for the bolt to lock back, but it did cycle every round no problem.  5 rounds over the Chronograph had me at 1040-1120FPS, a little larger spread than I would like, but none of them appeared to keyhole at either 10 or 40+ yards, so I can work on my quality control a little, but should be safe enough when I finally get my can.

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  • 1 year later...
On 9/10/2018 at 1:01 AM, Cougar_ml said:

With the stock folded it is fully functional, can be fired with no restrictions.

 

It doesn't come with a stock.  The one in the video just happens to be one they also make.

The folding adapter is made to accept any commercial or milspec buttstock., so you can add either your own rifle stock or brace.  I'd probably end up with the SBA3 on this setup.

 

I already have an AR-15 rifle.  it mostly just sits in the safe, as I prefer my bolt action rifle.  But I already have my bolt action so I don't really want another at the moment.

I want something more compact than either of them, but more range than my Glock 20.  My first thoughts were to get a tavor as I want something a little different than what I already have, but a lot of people said AR-15 pistol.  Not a fan too much of the pistols because of how much lost velocity there is in 5.56 and a short barrel, and with the buffer tube you're still talking a really long gun.  Most of the other options are more than I really want to spend, so I've narrowed it down to either this or the tavor in 300BO.

 

Mostly I want another gun, but I want something different than I have.  Main thoughts are basically something to fill the role of a PDW that would work in a vehicle.  This setup, with stock folded and a 9.5 inch barrel comes in right at 20 inches long, while still being fully functional.  I can also have it loaded in my vehicle if I want to (laws in my state don't allow for loaded rifles or shotguns in or on vehicles, and pistols loaded in vehicles only with CPL, which I have).  Not that I have a real need for a loaded long gun in my vehicle all the time, but it's just one more thing for me to consider.  22 cal is also not allowed for hunting deer in my state, my bolt action is heavy, and the deer here are kind of dumb (I was standing 20 feet from one in the yard earlier today yelling at it) so that's part of where the 300BO part comes in (that and a 30 cal suppressor in NFA jail at the moment)

I also don't have a huge budget for this, and I want something that I can fix myself with mostly over the counter parts if I need to (hence the AR-15 as a starting point), but these guys seem to be standing behind their stuff from what I can see, and almost everywhere I've looked it's sold out, so either it's popular, or just limited supply.  Lots of good reviews on it as well when I searched, but it's still too new for any long term testing.

Why would you ever think about hunting deer with a .22?? Lol 

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  • 2 months later...

I love folders myself.  My AK folds and is still functional.  My SOCOM II .308 folds and is still functional.  To the gentlemen above, my deceased WWII vet Grandfather whom I loved almost like a father, used to hunt deer with a .22 when times were lean, before my time.  He would shoot them through the eye in the brain pan.  So, it is possible.  When you possess a bird shotgun and a .22LR, and you have to feed your family, you do what you have to do.

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