LEO dress code and use of military equip

[GREYGHOST]

Im prior military; huge supporter of LEO/Mil by the way. But I must ask, what are current and prior LEO opinions/thoughts on the uses of LEO’s and 3 letter agencies wearing military uniforms and using military equipment, ie MRAP’s? I’ve toiled with this issue for many years and never really have inquired others thoughts. Every time I see a stand-off or swat in action on the news it appears LEO depts are littered with surplus military equip. I know this has been going on for quite some time, down turn of Afgan/Iraq. I personally don’t care for it as I believe there should be a clear distinction between LEO and military, perception is everything in public eyes.

The argument that ‘the bad guys having bigger and better guns now days, etc’ to me is not really holding up in fact (maybe in smaller towns). I lived through hurricane Katrina when I was in the military so I’ve seen economic and socionomics break downs. I make this point because I believe true help comes from the local level, ie police, firefighters, EMT and this is also where trust is built in communities. Katrina is an extreme example, but if police in New Orleans had more military gear at that time, I believe more chaos could have ensued with the appearance of Marshall Law in order. For those who don’t know, military was only there to assist first responders, organize supplies, at the time and that’s exactly what we did.

Just curious on people’s thoughts and opinions, if it’s even something that matters to LEO dept or the general public? Thanks for reading.

[Fallout]

What kind of equipment do you think would be sufficient but not military grade to effectively contain and resolve a standoff?

MRAPs are popular because they are free to the local agencies.  They serve one purpose to stop the good guys from getting shot by the bad guys.

A non-military armored vehicle cost my agency around 300k. So when we are trying to be good stewards of taxpayer money the MRAP becomes even more attractive.

The police are subject to operating in the same conditions and environments as the military and it only makes sense that the gear between the two is going to be similar. In fact the military has assumed a more police style role on their missions abroad and I would argue that I don't like seeing the military employ police tactics and equipment because it blurs the line!

As for uniforms..  why does the military wear BDUs in the battlefield?

Because they are durable and have utility with the pockets etc 

This is the same reason police wear them.  Dress Uniforms aren't cheap and the first time you take a knee or slide across concrete in them you are going to rip holes in them. 

Edited August 18, 2018 by Fallout

[TBO]

 

 

 

 

 

[TBO]

 

[fortyofforty]

These "complaints" evaporate every time there's an active shooter.  Then, the public and media crybabies tend to STFU and applaud the massive police response, including armored vehicles, scores of "machine guns" and "assault rifles", helmets, high-capacity magazines, BDUs, heavy vests with military grade plates, and more web gear, Kydex and Velcro than you thought had even existed.

[TBO]

An armored vehicle is not a tank.

Armour is defensive.

Sent from my Jackboot using Copatalk

[janice6]

I ask myself, what kind of vehicle would I like to be in if I'm going to be shot at by someone with unknown types of weapons ...………..  Not many choices.

[Maccabeus]

I don't have a problem with having some serious military style gear and armored vehicles available for crisis situations.

In the 90s, my old agency was using this as a SWAT/SRT response vehicle:

Neither armored nor overly maneuverable.  It was a milk truck with blue lights. It was that truck and whatever ARs the SRT guys had in the trunks of their patrol cars.

Any reasonably sized agency should be able to marshal a bit more for an emergency.

As for uniforms, I tend to err on the traditional side.  A traditional looking uniform looks more professional and communicates a better message than the super tactical or ultra casual look, IMO.  Specialty units that spend more time crawling through the bushes or rolling around on the ground can be an exception, but I prefer the rank and file officers to look polished and professional.  You don't need BDUs (or whatever they call them these days) and tactical vests to write up a theft by taking report, work an accident scene, or calm down a domestic dispute.  Yeah, sometimes they get dinged up, but that's why you have 2-3 more hanging in the closet ready to go.

[blueiron]

It is martial law.

If you want the police to return to a more genteel time involving firearms and equipment, then the public will have to fully embrace a more genteel time involving their distaste of certain firearms, their willingness to engage in horrific acts such as active shooters/terrorism/gang wars/etc. and become more civil towards each other and their public employees.

I will not be holding my breath for the American public to lead in anything.

[Slotback]

A quick chime in on this thread.....as Fallout notes, the equipment is free to the agency. So if a poor agency perceiving a need for say rifles, it's far cheaper to get some old M16's on "permanent loan" and order lower parts kits and replace convert a fully automatic rifle to a semi auto. So instead of paying several hundred dollars per unit, you might end up paying under $100 a unit in new parts. That's damned important to a budget challenged agency. Granted every agency has different issues. If your SWAT Team is being called out a lot, then a MRAP might make a whole lot of sense. Caveat being is that the agency is going to have to maintain the thing. But a MRAP would make no sense in Mayberry.

And there are always a lot of cops thinking "wouldn't it be nice if we got__________________"

 

[Wyzz Kydd]

On 8/17/2018 at 2:06 PM, GREYGHOST said:

Im prior military; huge supporter of LEO/Mil by the way. But I must ask, what are current and prior LEO opinions/thoughts on the uses of LEO’s and 3 letter agencies wearing military uniforms and using military equipment, ie MRAP’s? I’ve toiled with this issue for many years and never really have inquired others thoughts. Every time I see a stand-off or swat in action on the news it appears LEO depts are littered with surplus military equip. I know this has been going on for quite some time, down turn of Afgan/Iraq. I personally don’t care for it as I believe there should be a clear distinction between LEO and military, perception is everything in public eyes.

 

The argument that ‘the bad guys having bigger and better guns now days, etc’ to me is not really holding up in fact (maybe in smaller towns). I lived through hurricane Katrina when I was in the military so I’ve seen economic and socionomics break downs. I make this point because I believe true help comes from the local level, ie police, firefighters, EMT and this is also where trust is built in communities. Katrina is an extreme example, but if police in New Orleans had more military gear at that time, I believe more chaos could have ensued with the appearance of Marshall Law in order. For those who don’t know, military was only there to assist first responders, organize supplies, at the time and that’s exactly what we did.

 

Just curious on people’s thoughts and opinions, if it’s even something that matters to LEO dept or the general public? Thanks for reading.

 

I guess I don't see the problem.  When I see LE going about their typical days they're dressed like LE, some type of uniform, usually blue or black, with vest (hopefully) and more gear than I would want to pack.  Given their typical duties that makes sense.

When I see a SWAT team in action (never have in person), they're not going to be responding to calls for trespassing, handing out tickets, handling the scene of a accident, so given they have different jobs to do why would you expect them to dress the same, or use the same equipment?

If the choice is having LE wearing job appropriate apparel and carrying adequate equipment, or having them look non-threatening, I would prefer the former.

[GREYGHOST]

I really appreciate all the comments. I really believe the ones here are more sincere and honest then those I've read online to formulate a better understanding on the matter. I think I've be persuaded more 'for' then 'against'. I would not say I'm 100% against LEO's having any type of mil surplus (particularly when it comes to the cheaper cost to depts), but that theres still needs to be a distinction.

 

[Historian]

I think we should dress like cops. Some guys might have a need for bdus. But this are a few..and those I know wear suit-like uniforms to court.

There is a reason for most things. I think cops sometimes forget they are civilians. I know I fell into that mode of thought once or twice. But there is a good amount of cross over in gear.

But thank God for them. 

Edited August 27, 2018 by Historian

[Historian]

On 8/18/2018 at 1:18 PM, janice6 said:

I ask myself, what kind of vehicle would I like to be in if I'm going to be shot at by someone with unknown types of weapons ...………..  Not many choices.

That's one of the reasons a lot of big departments have those types of vehicles. 

They don't need the gun on a Bradley. But that thing sure would be good to get a wounded person out of harms way.

It's a mater of perspective.

About 15 years ago I was part of a panel discussing our body armor and what class and make the guys liked.

I told them if I was being shot at I wanted battleship Iowa class thickness in my vest.

I think we went with a second chance monarch. Easier to work with but not kamakazi proof.

Edited August 28, 2018 by Historian

[Slotback]

3 hours ago, GREYGHOST said:

I really appreciate all the comments. I really believe the ones here are more sincere and honest then those I've read online to formulate a better understanding on the matter. I think I've be persuaded more 'for' then 'against'. I would not say I'm 100% against LEO's having any type of mil surplus (particularly when it comes to the cheaper cost to depts), but that theres still needs to be a distinction.

 

So much of it from the agency point of view is budget driven. There is a metric ton of misinformation out there. But also there has been some horrific accounting practices as well.

[PATCHMAN]

I have no problem if the call is for U.S. LE to have their own colours, such as dark blue, black or brown (as opposed to .mil colours and patterns).  

When it comes to actual equipment, never forget that local LE will be the first responders to anything from active shooting (long guns) incidents to terror incidents involving any weapon from big trucks to bombs.  Therefore, LE equipment should be of the type and class able to meet these threats.

And lets not forget about nature, such as rescues in heavy rains and snows.  And natural disasters... floods, hurricanes, tornados, forrest fires, volcano eruptions, whatever.   A fleet of Ford Prius is just not going to cut it!     

Edited September 2, 2018 by PATCHMAN

[Historian]

On 8/27/2018 at 9:21 PM, Slotback said:

So much of it from the agency point of view is budget driven. There is a metric ton of misinformation out there. But also there has been some horrific accounting practices as well.

It does not help that so many depts ARE cash strung and the feds are giving away stuff.

[Slotback]

15 hours ago, Historian said:

It does not help that so many depts ARE cash strung and the feds are giving away stuff.

This is a good point. Where the negativity starts in is not in that an agency acquired items XYZ, it's their accounting of it. That's where trouble begins.

[AK_Stick]

On 8/26/2018 at 11:03 AM, Wyzz Kydd said:

I guess I don't see the problem.  When I see LE going about their typical days they're dressed like LE, some type of uniform, usually blue or black, with vest (hopefully) and more gear than I would want to pack.  Given their typical duties that makes sense.

When I see a SWAT team in action (never have in person), they're not going to be responding to calls for trespassing, handing out tickets, handling the scene of a accident, so given they have different jobs to do why would you expect them to dress the same, or use the same equipment?

If the choice is having LE wearing job appropriate apparel and carrying adequate equipment, or having them look non-threatening, I would prefer the former.

I think most of the outcry is over the guys who dress for their regular day, whilst wearing overly tactical gear. 

 

Friend of mine got a ticket a few weeks ago, cop was wearing a molle vest/pc and a molle belt with multiple pistol and two rifle mags on his belt. Plus the rest of his head. 

 

 

 

Now I understand why he’d have that kind of gear. I wear the same stuff when I go down range. Maybe he was coming or heading to something requiring all the tactical stuff. 

 

 

However, to people who don’t carry/use/like guns, he could easily have come off as excessive. And perception of public is reality to a lot of people.  

[Grabbrass]

On 8/17/2018 at 10:24 PM, TBO said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Cool pictures, but it's also relevant to the discussion that in the time from when those pictures date, ANYONE could buy those machine guns, at the same prices as the police and without 'registering' or paying a tax for the privilege.

[Historian]

Once federal money becomes a staple of the budget they own you. You can't run without it. Same as school systems.

 

Edited September 3, 2018 by Historian

[Dukeboy01]

One thing that would help the perception problem would be for police departments who use surplus military vehicles to paint and stripe them in their standard decal package instead of painting them flat black or leaving them with their military paint schemes. Sure, it's a little bit of a cost,  but when you're getting the vehicle for free or almost free, you ought to be able to at least spring for  your local MAACO franchisee to repaint it.

Edited September 5, 2018 by Dukeboy01

[John]

They can come in handy for a variety of reasons

[Historian]

What this guy above me said.

It's a matter of right place and time with the right gear.

 

[Fyrtwuck]

There is a rural town to the north of me. Population a little over 800 with one officer on the street at any given time. I was driving through one day and noticed an old Army tracked APC sitting it a vacant lot. I got out to look at it and the officer on duty pulled up and we started talking about it. He said that they had received it as part of a federal equipment program free of charge. I asked what they were going to use it for and he said that he had no idea whatsoever.