Best home defense firearm for novice shooters

[fortyofforty]

What's the best firearm choice for home defense, for shooters who are just starting out?  This is for people who are not "gun guys".  I've heard many suggestions, such as 12 gauge shotguns.  I disagree, since they're not easy to shoot well and require a lot of painful practice to operate well.  I've proposed a .38 revolver that can be loaded with light recoiling rounds without fear of malfunction.  I think a .38 loaded with wadcutters is not the worst choice, either.  I think an AR is preferable to a shotgun, because of the lighter recoil.  If practice is painful, it won't be done, in my experience.  Novice shooters need to be brought along gradually.  What say you?

[jame]

I agree, the 12 is just too much for the newly inducted.  Hell, it's too much for nearly anyone that hasn't spent time with one.  The popularity of these new short barreled, hog legged beasts from Mossberg and Remington as defensive guns just sort of mystifies me.

The a double action 38 makes a lot of sense, as long as they'd be willing to spend some time understanding how to pull the trigger and get hits somewhat reliably, but the trigger is the only downside I see to that option.  They're cheap to buy and shoot, reliable, powerful, low recoil, and easy to operate otherwise.  Very nearly a perfect pick, for my money.

I'd go along with the AR for the new guy, if it weren't for the muzzle blast, which can be stunning from either end of the weapon when fired in close quarters.  Otherwise, fast, accurate, easy to use, low recoil, and the benefit of being shoulder mounted.

I'd like to add to the list a 20 gauge, or even a .410 if one can be found.  Even loaded with bird shot or light game loads, they can both be nasty at close range, and recoil, while noticeable, isn't overwhelming.  A small .410 or 20 gauge double barrel couldn't be much simpler, though capacity is obviously low.

Another suggestion that I've made is a Ruger 10/22 .22 rimfire, loaded with high velocity copper cladded ammo, or an ultra velocity round such as Stingers.  Low power, I know, but it's easy to get in a lot of practice, reliable, and they're not at all intimidating from an operator's viewpoint.  Handled well, one can be a reasonably effective bad guy repellant.

No perfect answers on this subject, of course.  But there are a lot of "better than a pointy stick and 911" options to consider.  I'm hoping there are more suggestions to come.

[CalmerThanYou]

Being the advanced tactical operator I am, it is difficult to see things from the perspective of a novice

I think that the ease of operation combined with reliability it would be hard to do better than a revolver.  Perhaps a .38 with a mid-size barrel.  The only thing is they are not easy to shoot with a high degree of accuracy without alot of practice.  Perhaps if it is a older person or someone adverse to recoil the .22 suggestion, again in the form of a revolver would be a unique but statistically effective home defense option.

AR's, 1911's and Semi-automatic handguns all come with a manual of arms that takes some time to get familiar with.  The shotgun remains a viable option in whatever gauge or load you select there are reduced recoil shells.

I guess the answer is unique to the novices physical limitations or if they just know nothing about firearms which can be fixed with some training classes.

[fortyofforty]

I've steered a woman towards a Remington 870 in 20 gauge, when she insisted on a shotgun.  She didn't care for handguns at all, and lived out in the country, far from civilization or police response teams.  Her threats could as easily be four-legged as two.  Nobody'd volunteer to be hit with a load of buckshot from a 20 gauge, and the bore looked pretty intimidating to my eyes, even being used to a 12 gauge.

[O4L]

30-30 lever action!

[Jason D]

I have been an advocate of the 4" K frame .38 for that, for a long time. I have used them to teach new shooters how to shoot with good luck.

They are an easy gun to load, unload, shoot, and maintain. Plus, you can see it's loaded at a glance. You don't have to disassemble to clean one either, which is a plus for most. I do consider them slightly more involved to clean, but that's only if you lead one. 

[fortyofforty]

And I believe leading is an issue only when you push lead bullets at high velocities, which should not be a factor with new shooters.  A 4" barrel would serve very well, especially if tuned so the double action pull is smooth and relatively light.

[AK_Stick]

On ‎11‎/‎4‎/‎2017 at 4:14 AM, fortyofforty said:

What's the best firearm choice for home defense, for shooters who are just starting out?  This is for people who are not "gun guys".  I've heard many suggestions, such as 12 gauge shotguns.  I disagree, since they're not easy to shoot well and require a lot of painful practice to operate well.  I've proposed a .38 revolver that can be loaded with light recoiling rounds without fear of malfunction.  I think a .38 loaded with wadcutters is not the worst choice, either.  I think an AR is preferable to a shotgun, because of the lighter recoil.  If practice is painful, it won't be done, in my experience.  Novice shooters need to be brought along gradually.  What say you?

 

I'm curious how shotguns aren't easy to shoot well?

 

While I personally prefer an AR-15, its hard to imagine a gun much simpler than the pump action shotgun.

 

If shooting a pump shotgun is painful, you're probably doing it wrong. Get some LE reduced recoil ammo. Or move to a 20 gauge pump.

 

I think a 38 with light wadcutters, is probably one of the worst choices you could recommend for a new shooter.

[stevekozak]

2 hours ago, AK_Stick said:

 

I'm curious how shotguns aren't easy to shoot well?

 

While I personally prefer an AR-15, its hard to imagine a gun much simpler than the pump action shotgun.

 

If shooting a pump shotgun is painful, you're probably doing it wrong. Get some LE reduced recoil ammo. Or move to a 20 gauge pump.

 

I think a 38 with light wadcutters, is probably one of the worst choices you could recommend for a new shooter.

These are pretty much my thoughts as well. 

[fortyofforty]

2 hours ago, AK_Stick said:

 

I'm curious how shotguns aren't easy to shoot well?

 

While I personally prefer an AR-15, its hard to imagine a gun much simpler than the pump action shotgun.

 

If shooting a pump shotgun is painful, you're probably doing it wrong. Get some LE reduced recoil ammo. Or move to a 20 gauge pump.

 

I think a 38 with light wadcutters, is probably one of the worst choices you could recommend for a new shooter.

It requires multiple steps to fire, that's how.  Safety must be released.  Forget to do that in the heat of battle and you die.  Requires two hands to operate, or even hold for any length of time.  Try to turn on a lightswitch or dial a telephone or open a closed door while holding a shotgun, and you will see how.  Fire one shot and miss and you've got to pump it all the way back and all the way forward.  **** up that step and you die, that's how.  Your recommendation seems like that made by someone who either hasn't fired a shotgun under stress, or someone who hasn't taught new shooters to fire multiple shots in rapid succession with a shotgun.

Revolver.  Aim and pull the trigger.  Repeat as necessary.  Simplicity is king.  Use the other hand to dial a phone if necessary, even while holding someone at gunpoint.

Anyone recommending a shotgun for novice shooters is idiotic.

[holyjohnson]

house with close neighbors?

house with no neighbors?

apartment alone?

apartment with room mates?

mobile home?

refrigerator box under a bridge?

back stops are the deciding factor.

and no one should just buy a gun of any kind and not practice to be competent for its intended use.

 

 

[CalmerThanYou]

^^Ummmm....about six posts up you said you mentioned steering an older woman to use a 20 Gauge..although you did say she was insistent.

I kind of thought the question was based on a being able to protect yourself with something is better than nothing proposition.

The revolver is about as simple as it gets, but I would have some concerns about shots on target.

 

[fortyofforty]

31 minutes ago, CalmerThanYou said:

^^Ummmm....about six posts up you said you mentioned steering an older woman to use a 20 Gauge..although you did say she was insistent.

I kind of thought the question was based on a being able to protect yourself with something is better than nothing proposition.

The revolver is about as simple as it gets, but I would have some concerns about shots on target.

 

Ummmmm....I said I did indeed.  She lived out in the country, was not comfortable with a handgun (the idea) and wanted a shotgun.  The best of the choices given her requirements was a 20 gauge shotgun, and I stand by that decision.

I don't think it should be an either/or proposition.  For her, she was far more concerned with dealing with two- and four-legged intruders outside her home.  She wanted a weapon with which she could investigate and, if necessary, shoot the coyote or fox or other animal attempting to grab a quick meal at the expense of her domestic animals.  Also, deal with anyone foolish enough to threaten her.  Not a bad choice, and I never said it was, just not the best in all circumstances and worse than a revolver in many.

[jame]

6 hours ago, AK_Stick said:

 

I'm curious how shotguns aren't easy to shoot well?

 

While I personally prefer an AR-15, its hard to imagine a gun much simpler than the pump action shotgun.

 

If shooting a pump shotgun is painful, you're probably doing it wrong. Get some LE reduced recoil ammo. Or move to a 20 gauge pump.

 

I think a 38 with light wadcutters, is probably one of the worst choices you could recommend for a new shooter.

First off, I commend you with your personal pick of the AR platform for home defense.  Arguably, non better than that.

Regarding the shotgun or home defense, its my belief that the shotgun, especially the pump, is an experts pick.

I'm no combat vet, but I've spent many, many months of days in duck blinds, about as close of quarters you're going to find.  When the ducks are flying, especially teal, the shooting is high stress, high speed, and fast shooting, with a guy standing 36 inches away from you doing the same thing.  

I have both seen and experienced recoil knocking me off balance if my footing wasn't right.  High brass heavy loads pack a wallop, even waterfowl loads.

I've  both seen and experienced short stroking a pump shotgun, and the ensuing click on a dead chamber.

I'll also add the ears ringing and occasional thundering headaches that follow up rapid fire big blasting, short barrelled guns.

In short, I've seen enough screwups to make me not recommend the shotgun for home defense.  Nearly anything else will make the list to a beginner before I'd suggest one.

That said, people do what they do.  If they insist they can handle a pump shotgun, I wish them luck, and suggest they run through a box of shells per week shooting some informal backyard trap shooting.

Edited November 9, 2017 by jame

[stevekozak]

This thread is beginning to amuse me. 

[AK_Stick]

6 hours ago, fortyofforty said:

It requires multiple steps to fire, that's how.  Safety must be released.  Forget to do that in the heat of battle and you die.  Requires two hands to operate, or even hold for any length of time.  Try to turn on a lightswitch or dial a telephone or open a closed door while holding a shotgun, and you will see how.  Fire one shot and miss and you've got to pump it all the way back and all the way forward.  **** up that step and you die, that's how.  Your recommendation seems like that made by someone who either hasn't fired a shotgun under stress, or someone who hasn't taught new shooters to fire multiple shots in rapid succession with a shotgun.

Revolver.  Aim and pull the trigger.  Repeat as necessary.  Simplicity is king.  Use the other hand to dial a phone if necessary, even while holding someone at gunpoint.

Anyone recommending a shotgun for novice shooters is idiotic.

The pump shotgun, is the golden standard of entry level guns.

If you're moving through a house, trying to do other things like open doors or flipping light switches, you're talking clearing a house. That's advanced training and isn't something you do, unless you know what you're doing. Even if you know what you're doing, doing it by yourself is a really good way to get yourself dead.

 

You make an odd argument for a "seasoned" shooter/instructor. Talking about doing advanced things like maneuvering through a house with a weapon in the dark, and opening doors/using a phone. And then not being able to remember how to do something as simple as pump a shotgun.

 

 

My training, and advice for novice shooters is pretty simple.

Barricade yourself in a room, preferably with the shotgun pointed at the door, and kneeling behind something like the bed for cover. Call the police, and let them deal with the intruder. If anyone not the police comes through the door, you shoot until they go away, or the police tell you they're coming through the door.

 

If you're so unnerved under pressure that you can't remember how to operate a pump shotgun, you don't have any business operating a revolver. Because you're not going to be able to utilize it correctly either.

[AK_Stick]

4 hours ago, jame said:

First off, I commend you with your personal pick of the AR platform for home defense.  Arguably, non better than that.

Regarding the shotgun or home defense, its my belief that the shotgun, especially the pump, is an experts pick.

I'm no combat vet, but I've spent many, many months of days in duck blinds, about as close of quarters you're going to find.  When the ducks are flying, especially teal, the shooting is high stress, high speed, and fast shooting, with a guy standing 36 inches away from you doing the same thing.  

I have both seen and experienced recoil knocking me off balance if my footing wasn't right.  High brass heavy loads pack a wallop, even waterfowl loads.

I've  both seen and experienced short stroking a pump shotgun, and the ensuing click on a dead chamber.

I'll also add the ears ringing and occasional thundering headaches that follow up rapid fire big blasting, short barrelled guns.

In short, I've seen enough screwups to make me not recommend the shotgun for home defense.  Nearly anything else will make the list to a beginner before I'd suggest one.

That said, people do what they do.  If they insist they can handle a pump shotgun, I wish them luck, and suggest they run through a box of shells per week shooting some informal backyard trap shooting.

Its possible that those things happen.

 

Guns are loud. Even a handgun in a house is loud. But if you really need to pull that trigger, its unlikely you hear how loud it is till later.

Short stroking is possible, but thats a training failure. And same with limp wristing/improper grip on a pistol, it can cause you issues.

You shouldn't be using heavy magnum loads on a defensive gun. They're not gaining you anything, and quite honestly, are probably costing you.

 

With magnum buckshot, I can run my 500 or 870, just about as fast as I can accurately run my model 19 smith with 125 grain magnum 357 loads. With LE reduced recoil buck, I can run my 500 faster than my 357. Though, I've fired about 10K rounds of ammo through the 500 shooting trap/skeet and hunting ducks with it, so I'm defenitly more experienced with it than a handgun.

My 95 lb girlfriend can run the 870 with RR buck and get x ring hits about twice as fast as she can do the same with a revolver and good 357 self defense ammo.

[fortyofforty]

5 hours ago, AK_Stick said:

The pump shotgun, is the golden standard of entry level guns.

If you're moving through a house, trying to do other things like open doors or flipping light switches, you're talking clearing a house. That's advanced training and isn't something you do, unless you know what you're doing. Even if you know what you're doing, doing it by yourself is a really good way to get yourself dead.

 

You make an odd argument for a "seasoned" shooter/instructor. Talking about doing advanced things like maneuvering through a house with a weapon in the dark, and opening doors/using a phone. And then not being able to remember how to do something as simple as pump a shotgun.

 

 

My training, and advice for novice shooters is pretty simple.

Barricade yourself in a room, preferably with the shotgun pointed at the door, and kneeling behind something like the bed for cover. Call the police, and let them deal with the intruder. If anyone not the police comes through the door, you shoot until they go away, or the police tell you they're coming through the door.

 

If you're so unnerved under pressure that you can't remember how to operate a pump shotgun, you don't have any business operating a revolver. Because you're not going to be able to utilize it correctly either.

Barricade yourself in a room.  Really?  Heard a noise?  Barricade yourself in a room.  The outside lights flip on?  Barricade yourself in a room.  Dog starts barking?  Barricade yourself in a room.  This is the advice of someone who's never faced real life and lives in a fantasy world of ISIS-level home invasions.

As I said and stand by, if you know you're facing imminent danger, the shotgun is a good choice.  Unless you've got to clear a house and do all those operations I described while using two hands to maintain a shotgun.  Then, it's a liability.

If you've never trained shooters, even with extensive experience, on operating a shotgun under extreme stress, then you've got no business spouting off.  I've seen even the most experienced shooters fail to operate shotguns properly every time.  Expecting SEAL-level training for every gun owner is ludicrous, and telling homeowner they have no business operating a revolver or shotgun simply because they haven't reached some magical level of ability you describe (and probably claim to have achieved) is unfair to the vast majority of gunowners.  A shotgun demands more practice in operation than a revolver, by a long shot.

[jame]

6 hours ago, AK_Stick said:

Its possible that those things happen.

My 95 lb girlfriend can run the 870 with RR buck and get x ring hits about twice as fast as she can do the same with a revolver and good 357 self defense ammo.

"It's possible?"

No, in a real life, "I NEED TO KILL THAT THING" situation, it's likely.

It's great that your girlfriend partcipates in the shooting sports with you.  

But the thing is, I've never had an x-ring invade my home.

I'm glad you get a lot of range time.  I wish more would.  But what you're saying just doesn't apply in real life.

[AK_Stick]

4 hours ago, fortyofforty said:

Barricade yourself in a room.  Really?  Heard a noise?  Barricade yourself in a room.  The outside lights flip on?  Barricade yourself in a room.  Dog starts barking?  Barricade yourself in a room.  This is the advice of someone who's never faced real life and lives in a fantasy world of ISIS-level home invasions.

As I said and stand by, if you know you're facing imminent danger, the shotgun is a good choice.  Unless you've got to clear a house and do all those operations I described while using two hands to maintain a shotgun.  Then, it's a liability.

If you've never trained shooters, even with extensive experience, on operating a shotgun under extreme stress, then you've got no business spouting off.  I've seen even the most experienced shooters fail to operate shotguns properly every time.  Expecting SEAL-level training for every gun owner is ludicrous, and telling homeowner they have no business operating a revolver or shotgun simply because they haven't reached some magical level of ability you describe (and probably claim to have achieved) is unfair to the vast majority of gunowners.  A shotgun demands more practice in operation than a revolver, by a long shot.

This is not just incorrect, this is advocating outright dangerous behavior for someone who’s untrained. 

I think you could use some actual training before you reccomend anything else, because your lack of knowledge on the matter is apparent. The fact that you’re advocating a new shooter attempt to clear their own house clearly tells me you’ve never received any formal instruction on how to do so. 

 

[AK_Stick]

2 hours ago, jame said:

"It's possible?"

No, in a real life, "I NEED TO KILL THAT THING" situation, it's likely.

It's great that your girlfriend partcipates in the shooting sports with you.  

But the thing is, I've never had an x-ring invade my home.

I'm glad you get a lot of range time.  I wish more would.  But what you're saying just doesn't apply in real life.

Short stroking is a training issue, and can easily be overcome with correct instruction. 

 

The facf that you and your friends still do it, is simply inexperience, and lack of instruction on proper form. 

 

Not it only does what I say apply, the fact that you dismiss it as not applicable in real life tells me two things. 

1. You’re untrained. 

2. Your experience is limited. 

 

I get that you might have some slight experience shooting. But when it comes to tactical training, your statements are down right incorrect. Go take a course with some force on force CQB training. 

[fortyofforty]

That people are advocating barricading yourself in your bedroom at every bump in the night with your shotgun trained on the door tells me two things:

1. They have never cleared a house with a shotgun

2. They have never trained people to use a shotgun under stress

I get that some people have unrealistically high opinions of themselves and their training, but they truly have never had to operate inside a home with a shotgun, clearing rooms, opening doors, working light switches, using a flashlight, or dialing phones.  It's not the only choice for home defense, and in many cases it's not the best.

[AK_Stick]

How much training have you actually had?

 

I know for a fact you’ve never “trained” anyone to do anything under stress, but have you ever actually attended any kind of advanced shooting training?

 

[jame]

50 minutes ago, AK_Stick said:

Short stroking is a training issue, and can easily be overcome with correct instruction. 

 

The facf that you and your friends still do it, is simply inexperience, and lack of instruction on proper form. 

 

Not it only does what I say apply, the fact that you dismiss it as not applicable in real life tells me two things. 

1. You’re untrained. 

2. Your experience is limited. 

 

I get that you might have some slight experience shooting. But when it comes to tactical training, your statements are down right incorrect. Go take a course with some force on force CQB training. 

You seem to preach a lot about training.  The tough part is that you don't ask questions to fully understand.

Do you think I still short stroke a shotgun?  How often?  Why?  Do you know if I've resolved it?  If I did, how?  You have no idea, do you?

What is your solution to any issue seems to scream Training! without full comprehension of a situation..

And your not listening to forty, either.  You simply fail to understand applications in a simple, civilian household.  Combat shotgun training at Gunsite is not the solution for a 12.00/hr CNA that has a boyfriend thats become threatening, for example.

You've read too many combat/tactical magazines, is how it apprears.

 

[AK_Stick]

The problem is between the two of you, you have no knowledge of what you’re actually talking about. 

 

Youre advocating that 12/hr CNA perform maneuvers proficiently that require significant investitures of time to develop. 

 

This isn’t the voice of someone who reads tactical magazines. This the voice of actual experience. I’ve actually cleared houses. I’ve run FoF. 

 

Unlike the two of you, I actually know what I’m talking about. 

I preach training, because when it happens for real, you will revert to doing what you trained to do.

Where as you two mean well, but you don’t know how much you don’t know. Because neither one of you has but the barest of knowledge about using a gun. Get some actual training and I would be surprised if your opinion didn’t immediately 180*