What is justice?

[gwalchmai]

Thomas Sowell often says that justice is only available from God. I've learned that Mr. Sowell is more often right about things than wrong, so I tend to agree. Let me propose a scenario and you tell me about justice.

Let's say there's a guy, call him Eric, riding a bicycle down a dark road, just barely inside the city limits of a small town. It's just passed nightfall, he has no lights or reflectors. Just riding along minding his own business. Heading south.

Along comes a car driven by another guy, call him Ryan. Ryan is returning to town from the local fair and is also heading south. Ryan wears Coke bottle glasses and is not known for being the brightest bulb in the circuit. For whatever reason as he overtakes Eric, Ryan hits him and knocks him and the bike off the road. Eric rolls down an embankment into a heavily wooded ditch.

Ryan does not stop. Instead he drives a couple of miles to a convenience store and calls his friend Trey. Ryan tells Trey he thinks he may have hit a person or an animal and asks to come over and discuss it, which he does. It should be noted that along with being Ryan's longtime friend, Trey is a local attorney and a state senator. Trey listens to Ryan and suggests they go back to the road and have a look-see. Upon arriving Trey notices a bicycle on the side of the road but does not see Eric.

At this point Trey calls the local Chief of Police, who he knows well, and explains the situation. The Chief, let's call him Jamie, calls a patrol sergeant and asks him to investigate the scene. Upon arrival, the Sergeant discovers Eric in the ditch and calls 911. Paramedics arrive and treat Eric, but he dies en route to the hospital.

Where do y'all see justice in this situation? AFAIK, there are no wrong answers, and I'll try to provide additional details if you have questions.

Thanks!

[holyjohnson]

IMHO Justice is what we all agree on.

there is no real Justice for the Accidental death or even Negligent by Stupidity Killing of someone.

in this scenario i`d say the Officer Arrests Ryan,Trey Recuses Himself as being a Witness.

and the Jury Agrees on what is Justice.

sometimes there's Justice and Sometimes there's just us.

Trial by Jury gives everyone some semblance of Closure for the Death for everyone involved.

[NPTim]

When that hag and her coconspirator goes to jail and get abused in every way. 

[tadbart]

Eric shouldn't have been in the road without a properly equipped bike.

Ryan shoulda stopped immediately. Called 911, THEN his lawyer buddy.

Prompt patient care could have been done, and a timely on-scene investigation may or may not have led to an arrest.

Both dudes messed up.

 

In the you painted, justice is gonna be hard to come by.

Involuntary vehicular manslaughter and leaving the scene of a deadly crash for Ryan.

Death, for operating a vehicle without lights or signals, for Eric.

 

[gwalchmai]

12 hours ago, NPTim said:

When that hag and her coconspirator goes to jail and get abused in every way. 

You mean Carol Baskin? There's no way to conclusively prove she wasn't in the car with Ryan, or on the bike with Eric.

[railfancwb]

How is justice defined here?

Dolly Parton Lyrics

 

"The Carroll County Accident"
 

Carroll County's pointed out as kind of square
The biggest thing that happens is the county fair
And I guess that's why it seemed like such a big event
What we all call the Carroll County accident
The wreck was on the highway just inside the line
Walter Browning lost his life and for a time
It seemed that Mary Ellen Jones would surely die
But she lived long enough for her to testify

Now Walter Browning was a happy married man
And he wore a golden wedding ring upon his hand
But it was gone nobody knew just where it went
He'd lost it in the Carroll County accident

Mary Ellen testified he flagged her down
Said he was sick and could she drive him into town
And no one even doubted what she said was true
Cause she was well respected in the county too

Now I went down to see the wreck like all the rest
The bloody seats, the broken glass, the tangled mess
But I found something no one else had even seen
Behind the dash in Mary's crumpled up machine

A little matchbox circled by a rubberband
And inside the ring from Walter Browning's hand
And it took a while to figure out just what it meant
The truth about the Carroll County accident

By dark of night I dropped the ring into a well
And I took a sacred oath that I would never tell
The secret of the Carroll County accident
Cause the county ordered dad a marble monument

I lost him in the Carroll County accident

[Cheygriz]

[Eric]

That’s why I don’t ride bicycles.

[gwalchmai]

#MeToo. I see guys ride by my house every day. Rural road, no bike lanes, and these guys flaunt their "rights" at cars going around curves. It'd be cold comfort to know I was "right" as I lay splattered in the ditch.

Sorry, got a little carried away. AFAIK the victim in this case was not an advocate for bicyclists' rights.

[Maser]

Someone say justice? 

[aomagrat]

My brother used to ride his bike on the roads all the time, about 20 miles a day.  Until he got hit in the back by a big mirror sticking out from the side of a pickup truck and flung into the ditch.  The truck never even slowed down.  He doesn't ride much anymore. 

[johnbt]

"Ryan does not stop. Instead he drives a couple of miles to a convenience store and calls his friend Trey. Ryan tells Trey he thinks he may have hit a person"

 

He's in trouble. Did he think he hit a deer the size of an adult riding a bicycle? Did he check his fender for damage before leaving the scene? How stupid is he?

I think we know the answer to the last one. Drunk or stupid.

[janice6]

2 hours ago, johnbt said:

"Ryan does not stop. Instead he drives a couple of miles to a convenience store and calls his friend Trey. Ryan tells Trey he thinks he may have hit a person"

 

He's in trouble. Did he think he hit a deer the size of an adult riding a bicycle? Did he check his fender for damage before leaving the scene? How stupid is he?

I think we know the answer to the last one. Drunk or stupid.

Page out of the Kennedy book of drunk driving.

[gwalchmai]

6 hours ago, johnbt said:

"Ryan does not stop. Instead he drives a couple of miles to a convenience store and calls his friend Trey. Ryan tells Trey he thinks he may have hit a person"

 

He's in trouble. Did he think he hit a deer the size of an adult riding a bicycle? Did he check his fender for damage before leaving the scene? How stupid is he?

I think we know the answer to the last one. Drunk or stupid.

According to Trey, Ryan said he thought he may have hit a deer or a person. The story is kinda muddy. There's no indication of Ryan being tested for drugs or alcohol at the scene.

[janice6]

1 minute ago, gwalchmai said:

According to Trey, Ryan said he thought he may have hit a deer or a person. The story is kinda muddy. There's no indication of Ryan being tested for drugs or alcohol at the scene.

So for some, ignorance of the law is a valid excuse.................

[gwalchmai]

What about the drug / alcohol test, though? Wouldn't that be standard procedure even without the hit & run wrinkles?

[Nestor]

There is no justice. God is my only hope. I'm so tired of the evil pretending to be an angel. If someone really close to my heart will ever become a victim of a serious crime... I know exactly what will happen. You won't see more posts from me. Perhaps because I am a part of the justice system each and every day. I've seen it all. Literally.

Edited June 29, 2020 by Nestor

[Historian]

12 minutes ago, Nestor said:

I'm so tired of the evil pretending to be an angel.

Right there.  Evil is doing a hell of a job, every day.

[NPTim]

On 6/26/2020 at 9:36 AM, gwalchmai said:

You mean Carol Baskin? There's no way to conclusively prove she wasn't in the car with Ryan, or on the bike with Eric.

I have no idea what you a talking about. The hag is slick willie’s life partner, and her coconspirator is presiden 44. 

[railfancwb]

6 hours ago, janice6 said:

So for some, ignorance of the law is a valid excuse.................

Isn’t that the rationale For qualified immunity?

[Mrs.Cicero]

Funny how this has been coming up in conversation a lot lately... 

We don't have a Justice System. We have a legal system, and it's broken.

There is no justice to be had in this situation.

I don't know what to tell you.  The biker was at fault for breaking the law and riding at night without lights or reflectors (Was he freaking suicidal or what?).  He's dead, though, so citing him for being the cause of an accident by riding without lights/reflectors at night is no longer possible.  Also, he's dead, so there is no earthly justice for him.

 The driver was at fault for leaving the scene of an accident, which might be the proximate cause of the the biker's death (would earlier medical attention have saved him?).  Does this meet the definition of negligent homicide?  I think it does, and if so, the maximum term is seven years in prison.  That's not justice, since no restitution can be made to the victim, but it is something.  Had the driver stopped, and medical assistance been rendered in a timely fashion, even if the biker died, assuming the driver was in full possession of his faculties and not under the influence of drugs/alcohol, I would be inclined to find the driver not guilty of anything because the biker was not visible and therefore the driver could not have prevented the accident.  Had the biker been equipped with lights and reflectors, I would be inclined to charge the driver with negligent homicide, because he should have seen a biker so equipped.

I really hate this hypo, btw.

[gwalchmai]

Not a hypo.

[Mrs.Cicero]

On 6/30/2020 at 6:50 PM, gwalchmai said:

Not a hypo.

Lord have mercy.