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Presguy

Got to try a couple 12g beanbag yesterday,,

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Posted (edited)

In the name of LE charity fundrausing, training, and just a bit of stupidity, got to try a pair of shots ( to outside of thighs) with two 12g beanbags the other day. Gotta say, aside from some colorful bruising after the fact, the was nothing incapacitating about the trials.

If nothing else, they left me kinda luaghing due to their lack of effecf for a bit affterwards. Just felt like a solid strike, not something to stop or deter true agression. Had I been holding, say, a rubber knife at distance, I wouldn't have had any enticement to drop it.

Possibly as a force multiplier, or in a crowd control situation, but that's about it. If you've got any questions, feel free to ask away.

Edited by Presguy
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Posted (edited)

The ones I know don't aim for the outside of the thighs.

 

Just sayin'

 

;)

Edited by willie-pete
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On 8/30/2019 at 6:19 AM, willie-pete said:

The ones I know don't aim for the outside of the thighs.

 

Just sayin'

 

;)

Well, sure...

But this was for charity, so I had do draw the line at what we felt was an acceptable degree of risk. A fairly large muscle group backed by a decently sturdy bone. I'm sure the gut, head, etc, would have been a lot worse - and potentially even move it further from the "less"-lethal category.

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Related image

This is similar to the old monadnock baton chart. 

Green is where you were hit. These are areas less likely to cause injury. I'd image taking one to the shins would hurt like a MF though.

Red is considered deadly force (at least around here).  Yellow is in between with injury more likely.

https://www.kansas.com/news/local/crime/article220587635.html

One to the head would be pretty serious.

The best way to think of them is like a baton you can fire.  They're not magic, but they allow you to hit from a distance.  We train our officers to at least pair up with another officer who can provide cover with a firearm.  They have their place, but they're not the end-all solution.

A 40mm beanbag or other impact munition is probably more effective.

 

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On 8/30/2019 at 8:02 AM, Presguy said:

In the name of LE charity fundrausing, training, and just a bit of stupidity, got to try a pair of shots ( to outside of thighs) with two 12g beanbags the other day. Gotta say, aside from some colorful bruising after the fact, the was nothing incapacitating about the trials.

If nothing else, they left me kinda luaghing due to their lack of effecf for a bit affterwards. Just felt like a solid strike, not something to stop or deter true agression. Had I been holding, say, a rubber knife at distance, I wouldn't have had any enticement to drop it.

Possibly as a force multiplier, or in a crowd control situation, but that's about it. If you've got any questions, feel free to ask away.

This is why 12 GA bean bag rounds have fallen out of favor with many LE agencies. Sure, they cause "pain/discomfort" to reasonable folks like you (and me), but to amped up felons/ psychotics, drug impaired/ etc, nope. That's where the rubber meets the road. As such many agencies have no "less-lethal" ballistic tool, or if they do, nothing smaller than a 37mm/40mm grenade launcher type device to hammer the perp with a LARGE less-lethal projectile.  

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1 minute ago, TBO said:

This is why 12 GA bean bag rounds have fallen out of favor with many LE agencies. Sure, they cause "pain/discomfort" to reasonable folks like you (and me), but to amped up felons/ psychotics, drug impaired/ etc, nope. That's where the rubber meets the road. As such many agencies have no "less-lethal" ballistic tool, or if they do, nothing smaller than a 37mm/40mm grenade launcher type device to hammer the perp with a LARGE less-lethal projectile.  

Yep. I can remember precisely once in my years on the road when a 12gauge beanbag might have been a viable, appropriate tool.

Now I want to try a 37/40 with some kind of load, just haven't decided what. We'll probably do another charity fundraiser.

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On 8/30/2019 at 5:02 AM, Presguy said:

In the name of LE charity fundrausing, training, and just a bit of stupidity, got to try a pair of shots ( to outside of thighs) with two 12g beanbags the other day. Gotta say, aside from some colorful bruising after the fact, the was nothing incapacitating about the trials.

If nothing else, they left me kinda luaghing due to their lack of effecf for a bit affterwards. Just felt like a solid strike, not something to stop or deter true agression. Had I been holding, say, a rubber knife at distance, I wouldn't have had any enticement to drop it.

Possibly as a force multiplier, or in a crowd control situation, but that's about it. If you've got any questions, feel free to ask away.

Take one to the chest and I suspect you’ll feel a little different. 

 

I got shot in the back of the thigh with a 37mm, and it was hard to walk for a while. 

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On 9/4/2019 at 11:15 PM, Presguy said:

Yep. I can remember precisely once in my years on the road when a 12gauge beanbag might have been a viable, appropriate tool.

Now I want to try a 37/40 with some kind of load, just haven't decided what. We'll probably do another charity fundraiser.

The 40mm eXact impact rounds are pretty well regarded.

Image result for 40mm eXact impact round

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2 hours ago, jk_226 said:

The 40mm eXact impact rounds are pretty well regarded.

Image result for 40mm eXact impact round

That, or perhaps one of the OC/impact rounds in the same product line are what we're considering - I've been to Def Tech's cert course, so I kind of know my way around the product.

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I don't venture in here often, but I saw a psychotic chick with a razor knife take a beanbag to the gut back in the late 90s.

It was used as a surprise weapon- nobody said she was about to get shot with a bean bag. Officer just went to his trunk, pulled out a 12ga, and leveled it at her in the middle of the street.

I think it was used, less to debilitate, and more to shock. As in, "Oh ****, I just got shot!" That few seconds of "WTF just happened?" on the suspect was long enough to effect her capture without resistance.

As an EMT on the scene, it sure convinced me. I thought the officer had lost his ****, and had enough of the lady.

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On 9/4/2019 at 5:07 AM, jk_226 said:

Related image

This is similar to the old monadnock baton chart. 

Green is where you were hit. These are areas less likely to cause injury. I'd image taking one to the shins would hurt like a MF though.

Red is considered deadly force (at least around here).  Yellow is in between with injury more likely.

https://www.kansas.com/news/local/crime/article220587635.html

One to the head would be pretty serious.

The best way to think of them is like a baton you can fire.  They're not magic, but they allow you to hit from a distance.  We train our officers to at least pair up with another officer who can provide cover with a firearm.  They have their place, but they're not the end-all solution.

A 40mm beanbag or other impact munition is probably more effective.

 

I remember this chart for where to hit someone with an ASP.   About every six months there was the inert minty spray each other in the eyes, as most of us had had the real thing.  Then we practiced ASP strikes, and blocks.  They had to fill an 8 hour day at quals, after quals somehow.  Though, bulky, I liked the batons.  We were proficient with them until halfway through the '98 Academy they switched to the collapsible ASP.  That sucked when you had to find a rock out in the middle of nowhere to close it.  Though, nopolito golf was kind of fun.  Finally, they switched to the spring loaded nee variants, about midway through my career.  Though, despite the introduction of the ASP, they still had us in formation with riot sticks thrusting and moving as a group.  We were told once out, we would be used for all things, security, riot control.  In some cases that was true.  Where locals and county were thin, we always filled in the gap.

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